26 Scanias: 2022-24

[Barry Drive]

Topic for reporting sightings and similar for the 26 new leased Scania K320UBs

[Barry Drive]

Since, apparently, no one else wants to mention it: we have a sighting of a new Scania.

There was a new Bustech Scania seen at Tuggeranong Depot this week: Bus 722.

The contract has not been updated, so there is no revised delivery schedule available. The last schedule had buses arriving approximately every 5 days - with gaps in between. I would expect their goal would be around 3 buses every 2 weeks - that will make the final delivery due in early June.

[triumph]

Wondered what would show up if BUS722 was entered into ACT rego search. Expected nothing if not yet registered, but guess what, the 9yr plus retired Renault 722 showed up noted not registered. On reflection, not surprising as the registration history of a vehicle would need to be retained.

[Barry Drive]

In February, Chris Steel provided the Legislative Assembly with a progress report for the bus procurement.

An excerpt of that speech has been published on ACT Bus for posterity.

To summarise the summary: delivery of the 26 Scanias is expected to finish in July 2023; all 26 chassis have been delivered to BusTech; the delays at BusTech were caused by a number of factors including sourcing steel components, delayed air-conditioning parts, delayed glass and electrical harness components and defects in the fibreglass panels resulting in re-fit and replacement.

It was suggested that the body build be split between Adelaide and Gold Coast, but the report does not say whether this actually occurred – it may have been too difficult if the chassis have all been sent to Adelaide.

The Human Rights Commission was contacted and an exemption (from the DDA deadline) was sought due to the delays in delivery. It is not stated for how long the exemption was granted – but presumably it's until all buses are delivered.

[Barry Drive]

And Chris Steel has provided another update (on 6 June 2023). To summarise: there are continuing supply chain issues and skills shortages. And additional delays caused by Bustech having to relocate their Queensland HQ.

They decided against changing suppliers as it would not ensure quicker deliveries.

Anyway, the latest plan is for deliveries to be completed by November 2023. That's an average of one per week.

[triumph]

And Chris Steel has provided another update (on 6 June 2023). To summarise: there are continuing supply chain issues and skills shortages. And additional delays caused by Bustech having to relocate their Queensland HQ.

They decided against changing suppliers as it would not ensure quicker deliveries.

Anyway, the latest plan is for deliveries to be completed by November 2023. That's an average of one per week.

It is now a month since 728 was delivered and 2 months (almost) since 727 was delivered. One per week at the moment seems rather optimistic. So the Renaults might perhaps also be with us into next year....

[Barry Drive]

Indeed.

The ACT Legislative Assembly sits again from next week. I will have to check Hansard to see if Minister Steel makes yet another announcement about "supply chain problems."

Meanwhile, we should also look out for 4 Custom Denning Elements arriving late September. Their arrival might just be enough for the Renaults to be retired by the end of Term 4 - assuming we start to receive more Scanias soon. (Still 17 Renaults in service.)

The title of this topic may be adjusted at a later date.

[Barry Drive]

One per week at the moment seems rather optimistic.

I did say "on average".

Anyway: there are now 13 weeks until the end of November. In the unlikely event that BusTech can produce one bus per week, we can achieve the promised withdrawal of remaining Renaults by November (or early December).

I'm not aware of Chris Steel making any further announcements in the Assembly regarding this, but will check Hansard when it's available.

[Barry Drive]

There was a further announcement by the minister on Tuesday (24 Oct) - refer to this article on the website.

It's mostly a rehash of the previous statement - supply chain, etc. - but the key message is: of the 17 Scanias still due to be delivered, 9 will arrive before the end of the year (if you can believe it) with the remaining 8 in early 2024.

[triumph]

It's mostly a rehash of the previous statement - supply chain, etc. - but the key message is: of the 17 Scanias still due to be delivered, 9 will arrive before the end of the year (if you can believe it) with the remaining 8 in early 2024.

Not looking good. It is now 9 weeks since last delivery, BUS730. It is always possible though, that they will turn up as a bunch or only a day or two apart.

[Busnerd]

Perhaps they should have ordered some more Elements given they managed to deliver four in the time BusTech delivered one bus.

[triumph]

Perhaps they should have ordered some more Elements given they managed to deliver four in the time BusTech delivered one bus.

Seem to recall that quite a while back there was some doubt as to whether the Element order had even proceeded related to ability to supply.
Also it was reported that when the Scania delay became apparent that the Gov looked into getting an alternative supply with improved delivery with no practical success.
(People commentating on media articles enjoy labelling this as a failure of the Minister/Government but what in reality can be done if a Contracted performance is not met and other potential contractors can't do better? The reality is it is an industry failure.)

[triumph]

No sign yet of the expected pre-Christmas deliveries. Some components, such as airconditioning, are imported. Could it be that this is behind the latest delivery failure?

'According to Shipping Australia, DP World has estimated that the industrial action is costing the Australian economy A$84m (US$56m) every week – A$1.34bn since October.

It said there are more than 44,000 containers stalled at ports, which will take between two and eight weeks to clear once the industrial action ends.'

DP World has around 50% of port business in Australia so it seems quite probable that Bustech is impacted.

The inability to deliver product also must be having a big financial impact on bus manufacturers' cash flows and viability.

[Barry Drive]

No sign yet of the expected pre-Christmas deliveries. Some components, such as airconditioning, are imported. Could it be that this is behind the latest delivery failure?

While it seems feasible, this led me to do some internet searches, and it looks like the answer is "no".

The Australian Bus & Coach magazine publishes monthly bus delivery statistics - with data on chassis, body builder, air con supplier, seat supplier and region. What's interesting about these stats is that there don't appear to be any supply problem with Thermo King to other body builders. The problem, whatever it is, is entirely localised to BusTech.

These are the total units completed by BusTech Adelaide since April:

April: 3 (all TC)
May: 1 (1 x Adelaide)
June: 2 (all TC)
July: 1 (TC)
August: 2 (1 x TC, 1 x Adelaide artic)
September: 1 (TC)
October: 1 (1 x Adelaide Scania C250 Electric)
November: 1 (1 x Adelaide artic)
December: 0

This information only show completed deliveries, so can't determine what's currently on the production line. BusTech's Brisbane plant also had minimal output, yet Volgren, Custom Denning and even Express Coaches have managed to maintain consistent output - so these other manufacturers don't appear to have supply chain difficulties.

Interestingly, ABC Magazine have just published an article (which reads as an advertisement) about how BusTech are now offering the EVST body which can be adapted for electric buses (although only the Adelaide Scania C-series has been built).

Conclusion: when will we see the remaining 17 Scanias - 🤷 Will Scania step in and transfer the chassis to someone else - also 🤷

[triumph]

Very interesting. 12 deliveries in 9 months to all customers. At that rate, even if the entire production came here, the last delivery would be around next Christmas. I wonder what would be regarded as a 'normal' production rate.

I mentioned air-conditioning as Minister Steel, I read somewhere, had included this in a comment on supply delays. Likewise, it was said that moving the contract to another provider would not result in quicker deliveries because other providers were similarly impacted. Or did that actually refer to just involving the Bustech Brisbane factory? 
Something doesn't add up.

This also raises the question of progress of repair of 693 and any similar resource availability impacts.

[Barry Drive]

I don't think they'll ever announce publicly what is happening. While I don't doubt there were air conditioning supply problems (in 2022?), this doesn't seem to be affecting other body builders now.

I haven't found any details about what buses were on order from Adelaide - so don't know if they have a similar backlog. There has recently been an announcement of 15 new Hybrid buses in 2024, but no mention has been made whether these will be BusTechs (although it's highly likely).

The problem with changing body builders would have been firstly relocating the chassis from Adelaide and secondly whether any alternative had sufficient capacity for additional units. Again - at the time - this may have been a valid consideration assuming BusTech could meet the revised schedule. But in hindsight, had they made a decision early on to move some to Brisbane and others to either Volgren or Custom Denning, we'd probably have the order finished by now. It still may not be too late to send some away, depending on how many bodies are in a partially built state.

Bus 693 is (probably) at Wales Bus Repairs in Sydney. Hard to know how much of the body they'd need to rebuild and whether they'd need parts from BusTech. They are a specialist bus repair business though, so they should have adequate resources and staff.

The next sitting week of the ACT Legislative Assembly is early February - one year since the first announcement by Chris Steel that the buses would arrive by mid-2023. I look forward to what he will announce this time.

[Bus 400]

It almost would have been quicker for TC to pick up some second Mercedes low floor buses from Perth. Pay around $20,000 to 30,000 each for a 5-10 year life. Even if they picked up 35 buses, having some spares for parts. Saves spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. 

Not having any buses ordered for delivery between August 2020 & December 2022 didn't help things either.

[triumph]

Bustech executives must be worried about the effect of limited deliveries on cash flow. Also about the potential leakage and diversion of orders to other producers. If the situation doesn't improve quickly, then the firm's viability might come into question too.

In respect of 693, I used the term resources in a broad sense covering all aspects, including parts acquisition.

[Barry Drive]

The next sitting week of the ACT Legislative Assembly is early February - one year since the first announcement by Chris Steel that the buses would arrive by mid-2023. I look forward to what he will announce this time.

Well that was disappointing. Absolutely no reference to why the promised "nine by the end of 2023" was not met. Just a repeat of supply chain problems, difficulty in sourcing parts and skilled labour.

The latest report is "all buses will be received before the end of 2024". (A transcript will be provided later.)

Which works out at 1.5 buses per month from here onwards.

The Yutong contract may start delivering buses mid-year, so IF they prioritise the withdrawal of the Renaults before the Scania gas buses, we might have the Renaults fully withdrawn in about August/September.

[triumph]

It is not surprising that the Minister this time is being vague, having been let down by the supplier over past predictions. That is taking it at face value. It would though be rather surprising, with the need to sustain the near worn out Renaults and make every effort to comply with the disability access law, if the Government was in any way complicit itself in delaying deliveries. Time for Bustech to make a clarifying statement.
As previously remarked, the rhetorical  questions are how many near complete buses have Bustech got stored awaiting completion? And, if they haven't made significant progress with construction, then the continued viability of Bustech must be of concern.
An associated question, apparently not addressed by the Minister, is does the sharing of risk conditions in the procurement documents give rise to any additional payments to Bustech, or the application of deductions against Bustech?
As Barry Drive said, overall a very disappointing lack of clarification.
Then to further muddy the waters, there is non-entry to service of 4 electric buses delivered last Oct/Nov, and which had to go back to the maker for apparently undefined 'modifications'.

[Bus 400]

For those that remember, wasn't it 2 years of similar vague excuses for the first electric buses ACTION (back then) were going to trial with some new company out of Victoria. Contact was torn up by ACTION eventually. 

I haven't looked at this contract. But I assume the usual payment penalties apply for this contract. 

[Busnerd]

For those that remember, wasn't it 2 years of similar vague excuses for the first electric buses ACTION (back then) were going to trial with some new company out of Victoria. Contact was torn up by ACTION eventually.

I haven't looked at this contract. But I assume the usual payment penalties apply for this contract.

I believe that was the "Matilda" bus which never really eventuated.

[Barry Drive]

(A transcript will be provided later.)

I've posted a brief transcript here: https://www.actbus.net/yet-more-delays-in-delivery-of-new-scania-buses/

Most of the rest of the statement was about minimising the usage of PR100.2s, which is also unchanged from last time.

The Minister was deliberately vague since he's still awaiting a revised delivery schedule from Scania.

In Question Time yesterday, the question was put "why should Canberrans believe you this time?" - which was not answered. He would have been better asking "why do you believe what Scania are now telling you, given their track record so far?", but regrettably the opposition is more concerned with point scoring than actual fact finding.

[triumph]

It is not surprising that the Minister this time is being vague, ...
An associated question, apparently not addressed by the Minister, is does the sharing of risk conditions in the procurement documents give rise to any additional payments to Bustech, or the application of deductions against Bustech? ...

From the reported Minister's statement, Scania, not Bustech, is the primary contractor. So the reference to payments should probably more properly relate to Scania in lieu of Bustech. A further complication is that they are leased buses. So costs incurred by TC from sustaining the Renaults and the hard to quantify community cost of keeping non-disability compliant buses in service, may be practically unrecoverable. Likewise the additional costs incurred by the supplier are very likely largely unrecoverable via varied lease charges.
Another rhetorical question, given a comment a while back about Scania taking back chassis, is, are the Scania products (chassis) available, with the delay issues resting with the body builder (Bustech)? Up to now I had understood that this was the case.

 

[Barry Drive]

The contract is actually with Scania Finance, since it's a leasing agreement.

The question of damages (or compensation) for late delivery was an interesting thought, but it's not covered by the contract. If anything, TC are saving money by the late deliveries, since they are only required to pay for a bus once it's been received. There are also no penalty provisions, since no payment occurs until delivery.

The contract does include provisions for termination due to late deliveries. Which makes me think that Scania won't try to increase the lease charges because TC might instead opt to enforce the termination clause. (And that clause might still be under consideration.)

As I've said previously, I don't believe the Renaults are that expensive to maintain nor are they especially prone to breakdowns, in comparison to other buses. The main disadvantage is that keeping the Renaults in service results in Irisbuses being used more. (Because once a Renault is withdrawn, the shift can be reassigned to an Irisbus, thus reducing the usage of both buses.)

As for how many buses are on the production line, who knows? But it's quite possible all have had some work started which makes it difficult to transfer elsewhere.

[Bus 400]

Not sure what's going on, but there's a new contract signed with Transport for NSW to sapply TC 20 x retired low floor buses. 

When I get home I'll go through the contract in more detail. But noted was they were to be delivered this week. 

[Busnerd]

It seems the post was 12 minutes and 8 seconds prior to April Fools Day commencing but I will still take this as an april fools joke.

[L94UBbusfan]

Because no one has said anything yet, 732 has entered service today. It was first sighted doing an R9 Belconnen to Watson this morning

[L94UBbusfan]

If you aren't aware yet, BusTech has been placed into voluntary administration. The South Australian Transport minister told FIVEaa radio that he isn't concerned about Adelaide's BusTech contract going "off track" despite administration. A meeting with creditors is set for August 22nd. There is no information yet on how this will affect Canberra's 13 yet to be delivered Scanias.

[Barry Drive]

BusTech has been placed into voluntary administration.

While this complicates matters and may cause further delays, the contract for supply of buses remains active.

BusTech are suppliers to Scania, but are not a party to the contract. The ACT Government can choose to end the contract early (at 13 buses), since Scania has failed to deliver on time. If the Government wants to continue with the order, Scania may need to find an acceptable alternative body supplier.

The creditors' meeting should appoint a committee which will advise the administrator. (This includes approving the restructure of the companies or even winding-up the companies if they are not a going concern.) Should the administrator decide to restructure and continue trading, the remaining buses may still be built by BusTech, although they may move production to Brisbane.

The ACT Legislative Assembly resumes sitting in a week (27 August). Will Minister Steel make a statement then?

[L94UBbusfan]

With all this talk about the future of BusTech, I am really starting to question whether TC actually needs the remaining 13 Scania's. Some points of interest include...

1: The 26 Scania's were primarily ordered to replace the remaining Renaults, and since all Renaults have now been withdrawn, it means these buses would effectively be "extra" and perhaps unnecessary buses.

2: Yutongs are now arriving at a very steady pace, and there are still enough buses on order to enable fleet growth while also withdrawing all L94s and Irisbuses (the Yutongs are also zero emissions buses while the BusTech's aren't)

3: The whole situation regarding BusTech's administration and future still isn't fully certain, They also constantly failed to keep to the delivery schedule throughout this order. I personally think it would be more simple to just end the contract early and focus on something else instead (like more electric buses or light rail for example)

[Snorzac]

You have to look at the bigger picture, ie. total numbers....yes the leased bustechs were to replace the Renaults which are now fully retired, however the Yutong order is numbered to replace the Scania gas and Irisbus, if you didn't take on the remaining Scania or suitable diesel replacement you would need to extend the Yutong order, that may then run you into charging capacity issues 

[triumph]

...
3: The whole situation regarding BusTech's administration and future still isn't fully certain, They also constantly failed to keep to the delivery schedule throughout this order. I personally think it would be more simple to just end the contract early and focus on something else instead (like more electric buses or light rail for example)

While this complicates matters and may cause further delays, the contract for supply of buses remains active.

BusTech are suppliers to Scania, but are not a party to the contract. The ACT Government can choose to end the contract early (at 13 buses), since Scania has failed to deliver on time. If the Government wants to continue with the order, Scania may need to find an acceptable alternative body supplier.
...
 

As has already been made clear, the contract is with Scania not Bustech.

Whilst, as has been pointed out, Scania in theory has options, but it has previously also been pointed out that the state of the bus building industry locally was such that swapping suppliers would not help. The distinction with the Yutongs seems to be that body and chassis are by the one supplier and not reliant on local industry. Your speculation that the Scanias could be cancelled in favour of Yutongs may turn out to be right.

The caveat is that cancelling contracts already in progress can be quite difficult and with great potential for dispute.   

[Barry Drive]

... however the Yutong order is numbered to replace the Scania gas and Irisbus, if you didn't take on the remaining Scania or suitable diesel replacement you would need to extend the Yutong order, that may then run you into charging capacity issues

Some numbers: there are 78 more Yutongs to be delivered in the current order of 90 (delivery to be completed end of 2026).

There are 44 Scania L94UB CNG Buses and 18 Irisbuses (total: 62) currently in service.

Tuggeranong will be able to house 60 Electric Buses and up to 100 at Woden (need to check that) - once the upgrade is complete and the chargers installed.

So: the Yutong order alone will be sufficient to withdraw the Irisbuses and CNG Scanias, and still have 16 additional buses. There will also be sufficient capacity - at least until 2026 - for all Yutongs on order.

(Also note that ACT Labor has stated they will order a further 110 buses during the next term of the Assembly.)

Conclusion: the remaining 13 Scanias on the contract aren't necessary for fleet replacement, but would be useful for fleet expansion. The Minister has stated that Scania is still investigating options to fulfil the contract.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

What about the CNG MANs?

[L94UBbusfan]

Some numbers: there are 78 more Yutongs to be delivered in the current order of 90 (delivery to be completed end of 2026).

There are 44 Scania L94UB CNG Buses and 18 Irisbuses (total: 62) currently in service.

Tuggeranong will be able to house 60 Electric Buses and up to 100 at Woden (need to check that) - once the upgrade is complete and the chargers installed.

So: the Yutong order alone will be sufficient to withdraw the Irisbuses and CNG Scanias, and still have 16 additional buses. There will also be sufficient capacity - at least until 2026 - for all Yutongs on order.

(Also note that ACT Labor has stated they will order a further 110 buses during the next term of the Assembly.)

Conclusion: the remaining 13 Scanias on the contract aren't necessary for fleet replacement, but would be useful for fleet expansion. The Minister has stated that Scania is still investigating options to fulfil the contract.

This is exactly my point. The contract isn't absolutely necessary anymore, but it would be useful for fleet expansion, which is good especially as the network grows, but isn't required right now in 2024. More buses can be ordered later on if we actually need them (ie; the 110 buses promised by Labor)

What about the CNG MANs?

The CNG MANs won't need to be withdrawn until 2028, unlike the L94s which will all need to be gone by 2026 (due to the gas tanks age limit of 20 years)


This is also my 100th post!!! 

[Barry Drive]

The  Minister has stated that Scania is still investigating options to fulfil the contract.

Update: the administrator of BusTech has accepted an offer from GoZero (aka Nexport). Reports suggest they will keep the Brisbane and Adelaide plants.

What is still unknown at this point is how this will affect the remaining 13 buses from BusTech. Will they continue to utilise the VST body? Or will part of the order switch over to use the Gemilang body kit from Malaysia?

The distinction with the Yutongs seems to be that body and chassis are by the one supplier and not reliant on local industry.

This is incorrect. VDI - the Australian supplier of Yutong buses - has established an assembly plant in Brisbane. All (or most) of the 90 Yutong order are being shipped from China partially completed but the body assembly is being undertaken in Brisbane. This is reminiscent of the Leyland Nationals in the 1970s when they were built in Enfield from body kits supplied from England.

[triumph]

....

This is incorrect. VDI - the Australian supplier of Yutong buses - has established an assembly plant in Brisbane. All (or most) of the 90 Yutong order are being shipped from China partially completed but the body assembly is being undertaken in Brisbane. This is reminiscent of the Leyland Nationals in the 1970s when they were built in Enfield from body kits supplied from England.

Thanks for that correction. I had relied on Fleetwicki which gave the body brand as Yutong. When thinking of 'Australian industry' I had had in mind bodies designed and manufactured here, thus one entity supplying the chassis and another the body. It is considerably simpler to just organise for assembly of supplied components. I think the point remains that the Yutong advantage is that they are fundamentally responsible for both body and chassis.   

[Cutepattern1098]

This is exactly my point. The contract isn't absolutely necessary anymore, but it would be useful for fleet expansion, which is good especially as the network grows, but isn't required right now in 2024. More buses can be ordered later on if we actually need them (ie; the 110 buses promised by Labor)



The CNG MANs won't need to be withdrawn until 2028, unlike the L94s which will all need to be gone by 2026 (due to the gas tanks age limit of 20 years)


This is also my 100th post!!! 

I don't think it will be economical to maintain a completely seperate fuelling system to keep relatively small number of Gas M.A.N on the road between 2026 and 2028. Makes more sense to replace them with the existing orders already on the books.