Renaults a go go: the final frontier

[Barry Drive]

With the (presumed) imminent arrival of 26 new Scanias and the DDA deadline of 31 December fast approaching, this topic is to record the final movements of the remaining Renault PR100.2s

To recap, there are 39 in total: 927-963 at Belconnen (23), 969-982 at Tuggeranong (14) and 943-944 as trainers.

But will 927 be withdrawn first, or will they be removed based on mechanical grounds? And will they keep some as trainers, despite the remainder being withdrawn?

[triumph]

Umm. The 2023 on-line 1st Term timetable shows a number of services without the wheelchair symbol. So apparently the non-compliant deadline is going to be missed, with at least some of the Renaults soldiering on for a while?

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

With how delayed the arrival of the new/leased/electric buses are it's certinaly looking this way.

[Barry Drive]

From what I've heard, there should be some Yutong electric buses arriving this month. So expect there will be some Renaults withdrawn by the start of Term 1.

I can only assume that TC have been given an exemption/extension for the 100% low floor deadline.

[743]

I can only assume that TC have been given an exemption/extension for the 100% low floor deadline.

In news which I'm sure will surprise no-one, the Renaults are out this morning. Here is 938 coming in to Dickson just before xx:00.

[Bus It]

I saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!

I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.

[Bus It]

I saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!

I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.

***Correction it was 931***

[triumph]

I saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!

I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.

Actually, what are the realistic consequences for simply ignoring the requirement for a few weeks? Just maybe.....

[triumph]

Also, just been to Melbourne, there are plenty of older high floor trams about, so presumably exemptions/extensions are available.

[Bus 400]

According to (https://piperalderman.com.au/insight/bus-disability-access-requirements-due-31-december-2022-are-you-ready/), it looks like 5 year extensions can be & has been granted. 

It's not just buses that have to be accessible, but also bus stops & public transport stations. This work is still continuing in Canberra. 

[Barry Drive]

It's not just buses that have to be accessible, but also bus stops & public transport stations. This work is still continuing in Canberra.

I thought they had longer to do the bus stops, so I looked it up. And you're right - bus stops, infrastructure is also meant to be 100% by 2022.

So there's definitely been an extension granted, just a question of how long is it?

Also, just been to Melbourne, there are plenty of older high floor trams about,

For trams and trains the 100% deadline is 31 December 2032. But there's already doubt that can be reached, given that Victoria has only ordered 100 G class trams (so far).

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

So there's definitely been an extension granted, just a question of how long is it?

Forever please lol.

Also what does an accessible bus stop look like?

[Bus 400]

Main points of a DDA compliant bus stop are:

1. Tactile markings pointing towards the kerb
2. Step free access to & from the kerb. Which is why boarding points or shelters will sometimes be moved. But why all new/modified stops have a flat surface. 

Depending on the bus stop location, dictates the amount of work required. 

But has also been hinted as to why so many stops were cut in the last major network review. 

[triumph]

Main points of a DDA compliant bus stop are:

1. Tactile markings pointing towards the kerb
2. Step free access to & from the kerb. Which is why boarding points or shelters will sometimes be moved. But why all new/modified stops have a flat surface.

Depending on the bus stop location, dictates the amount of work required.

But has also been hinted as to why so many stops were cut in the last major network review.

A very perverse outcome indeed. If not useable by people with a disability, then no one can. And the alternative is just as far away and inconvenient for the disabled customer anyway.

I noticed the same in Queensland - several country towns between Toowoomba and Charleville had lost Westlander train service due to non-compliant stations. Also, near where I live there was a stop with no path linking to the adjacent pedestrian underpass path - a compliant path would need an expensive retaining wall, I was told, so would not be provided - I won that safety issue, there is a compliant (I think) path now and no retaining wall.

This issue of disability access is drifting away from Renaults a Go Go, and cuts across infrastructure, vehicle, and service categories, and is likely to be on-going. Perhaps there is a need for a new category to be considered by our administrators?
 

[743]

There was some media commentary this week regarding the use of the Renaults in to 2023. I observed what seemed to be more of the Irisbus fleet following this, and not a single Renault some days (although, unlike Michelle Yeoh, I'm not everywhere all at once). It will be interesting to see what happens from the return of school term.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

The only Renault shifts during the holiday timetable (aka the slightly altered 2020 Christmas Timetable) are a couple Gungahlin, City and Belconnen routes first thing in the morning, then pretty much nothing else for the rest of the day except one that comes to Woden for a couple 66s and 59s - they're all Belconnen shifts too I seem to recal.
It certainly will be interesting to see what happens at the start of the term, I'll be monitoring anytrip for most of the first week. It'll either be very disappointing or super wierd.

[Barry Drive]

There was some media commentary this week regarding the use of the Renaults in to 2023.

And yet no one seemed to care that some/many bus stops are not DDA compliant.

It's not quite as bad as Melbourne, where they run low floor trams but have non-accessible stops.

But IMO, the "outrage" about having non-accessible buses still in service is more about political point scoring than a genuine concern about MIPs.*

And yes, they do appear to be able to operate Renault-free in school holidays, but I doubt it will be possible once the school term starts.

[* MIP = Mobility Impaired Person ]

[743]

Couldn't agree more with you, Barry.

[triumph]

....
It's not quite as bad as Melbourne, where they run low floor trams but have non-accessible stops.
''''

Had a look at the numbers, and low floor trams are in the minority.There are 200 low floor trams in the service fleet, BUT the number of high floor trams (excluding the City Circle service heritage fleet) in the service fleet are between 326 (Yarra trams) and 306 (vicsig). Taking the vicsig number, low floor trams are just fractionally under 40% of the fleet. They have a long way to go.
There are a number of accessible stops, with more being developed. There is, however, a vast number of stops (eg about 46 on the Essendon route alone, and multiply by 2 for the bidirectional aspect), so it seems to me unlikely and impractical to develop them all. What will result? Wholesale stop closures, the perverse outcome? Or will on board facilities be developed to provide street surface level access? Or will the let out clause about impracticality apply?
The Canberra situation leads to speculation about the implications for the local habits of regularly re-arranging routes, diversions at the drop of a construction hat, new routes, trial routes, and so on. Continuing compliance looks as if it might get to be interesting.
As for the Renaults, with gradual relegation to standby status (ref TC media comment) prior to withdrawal, it may well be nigh on impossible to be aware of which one will be last to supply a regular public run and when that happened, unless TC can definitively report it.   

[Bus 400]

ABC 7:30 did a piece on DDA legislation. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-16/australia-misses-20-year-public-transport-accessibility-target/101858532

73% Melbourne tram stops aren't DDA compliant. However railed transport have til 2032 to be DDA compliant. 

Searching does show this, but there's talk of amending the legislation in 2023, due to costs. They've only had 20 years to complete this project, but ok.....

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

The driver relieving for the afternoon shift said to me they've turned something off in all the Renault's and that they won't be using them again until the new network, hence why he had an Iris yesterday. I haven't been watching anytrip lately to know for myself and some drivers are less believable than others. To those who know better, what is really happening?

[743]

https://www.transport.act.gov.au/news/news-and-events-items/january-2023/travel-the-electric-way-on-canberras-first-zero-emissions-bus

In the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.

Another acknowledgement that we'll continue to see the Renaults...for now.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

The media thing was yesterday? god damnit, I was out yesterday too...

[Barry Drive]

In the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.

That's interesting. The minister's media release ( https://www.actbus.net/travel-the-electric-way-on-canberras-first-zero-emissions-bus/ ) said this:

... unfortunately the old orange Renault diesel buses will continue to be used on the bus network for a short period to maintain services for the community until the replacement buses arrive.

No mention of "minimising use".

Also, "a short period" will probably be six months (if not longer). There is still no indication of when we'll see the first leased Scania, nor how long it will take to put all 26 into service.

But the PR100.2s will definitely be in service on Monday when school resumes. How many will be in use is the only unknown.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

But the PR100.2s will definitely be in service on Monday when school resumes. How many will be in use is the only unknown.

I've already identified this many already - blurred out the times for privacy although it's probably not hard to figure out which ones they are. I'll be monitoring the network for the rest of the week to see if these change. Once I have the full day list I'll be able to create a route plan for those interested in riding as many in 1 day as possible.

[Barry Drive]

Sorry - I know this is public information, but I would prefer that bus numbers not be linked to each trip.

You may list the trips, and list which buses are being used but don't link them.

For example:

The following buses were noticed in use today:
928 929 930 935 938 952 958 963 971 981 & 982

And they operated the following trips:


Please also be aware, the runs operated may vary depending on the availability of low floor buses, and new buses entering service - some days more and other days fewer.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Oh yeh my bad, that image indicated the shifts that each bus possessed.

I'm honestly surprised how many there've been. I missed out on a bunch of routes this morning cuz I woke up late and for some reason anytrip won't detect route 46, but I have identified 115+ routes that operated Renault's so far today. Obviously a bunch of these are probably not suppose to have Renualt's on them, I'll be keeping an eye on that over the next couple of weeks.

[triumph]

Third parties like 'Anytrip' list bus fleet number against each trip. Further, is not the display on the bus of the driver's licence/authority mandated for public information? Not to mention traditional observational methods. Not much real privacy.
Coming from a country town where the name, address, favorite pub/club, team supported, etc and which services a driver operated was common knowledge, I don't understand why the issue of linking buses and specific services is so sensitive here.
The downside of the present rule and thus lack of pattern information, is that if a bus of interest is noted, eg 800, catching up with it later on is a rather lucky guess.
However, as previously pointed out, the Forum administration is an autocracy, not a democracy. So non-linking is the rule, and so be it.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Ye, lotta rule contradictions here, but so be it...

I have identified 115+ routes that operated Renault's so far today

Woke up early specially to catch the extra Renault services and any others that weren't tracked yesterday - 46's still won't register. List is over 120 now.

[Buzz Killington]

I don't understand why the issue of linking buses and specific services is so sensitive here. 

It a policy we implemented with consideration of the people behind the wheel of the bus.

[Barry Drive]

Since this topic was set up with the intention of reporting on Renault withdrawals: 974 & 975 are believed to be in the process of being withdrawn.

[triumph]

It a policy we implemented with consideration of the people behind the wheel of the bus.

When the relevant information can now be derived so much more readily, I doubt that that 'consideration' now has any practical relevance; BUT, on reflection, there is a different consideration (which I will not specify here, and is not directly relevant to drivers) which would, I feel, fully justify the present policy remaining in place.

[triumph]

Renault 927, currently the oldest ACTION service bus in use, was withdrawn at the end of June 2021. 2 months later it was re-activated as a reportedly temporary replacement for an unexpected major failure of an Iris. Recently 3 much newer Renaults 974, 975 and 956 were withdrawn, yet temporary 927 soldiers on = seen today performing a school service.
How TC selects and justifies retirements seems to have no obvious logic. Other one from an old tranche out for one new in.

[Buzz Killington]

There's only about 18 months difference between 927 and 982 - basically meaningless in the context of 30 year old buses.

My understanding (and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) is that the Renaults being selected for withdrawal are generally based on mechanical issues or accident damage that isn't worth repairing.

[triumph]

Agreed but 927 on that basis was the worst some 19months ago. Maybe it was fixed and thus now quite good comparatively.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Passed 961 the other day, its park brake alarm was having a tantrum and given the service truck being there I'd say it was there a while. Dunno about 927, but there's a couple others in the fleet I'm expecting to go sooner than others.
Seems odd thought that 974 and 975 got it first, if any of the 70's I would say 972 is a problem bus - but that's only based on what I've heard as a passenger on these buses.

[Barry Drive]

How TC selects and justifies retirements seems to have no obvious logic.

While we know when particular buses were built, we have no insight into their maintenance records. It is possible that 956/974/975 had covered more kilometres than other buses, or that they had some mechanical problems (like a troublesome gearbox).

[Bus It]

I wouldn't even be surprised if servicing (seperate to mechanical faults) is playing a part at this point. Let's say they're due for a fairly major service (perhaps oil, tyres, brakes, comprehensive inspection etc) which may cost around a few thousand every set number of KMs. If 974, 975 & 956 were all due at a certain point, it may have been worthwhile just decommissioning them rather than paying money on servicing. By comparison, there may be much older busses (eg 932) which may have more KMs left until its due.

[Bus 524]

I wouldn't even be surprised if servicing (seperate to mechanical faults) is playing a part at this point. Let's say they're due for a fairly major service (perhaps oil, tyres, brakes, comprehensive inspection etc) which may cost around a few thousand every set number of KMs. If 974, 975 & 956 were all due at a certain point, it may have been worthwhile just decommissioning them rather than paying money on servicing. By comparison, there may be much older busses (eg 932) which may have more KMs left until its due.

974 was withdrawn due to it having another major mechanical failure and is now being used as parts at Belconnen and 975 and 956 I'm not sure about. But 956 is now the new parts bus at Tuggeranong and 975 is next to 974 at Belco Depot which is unknown why its there but is currently parked there.

[triumph]

All sound points. One other aspect, which in the scheme of things is probably not particularly significant, is that it is my perception that retirements usually seem to be from the depot that has just received a new bus.

[Bus It]

974 was withdrawn due to it having another major mechanical failure and is now being used as parts at Belconnen and 975 and 956 I'm not sure about. But 956 is now the new parts bus at Tuggeranong and 975 is next to 974 at Belco Depot which is unknown why its there but is currently parked there.

I used to get that bus everyday up until early this year. It's such a shame as it always seemed like a good one and made no unusual sounds or anything. I was really hoping it was going to be sold and given a second life somewhere... Sigh...

[triumph]

For anyone who might be interested.
Around 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

I mean I have a spreadsheet with 130+ Renault routes for the whole of every day on it. It won't have all of them as I've noticed the occasional extra one here and there, but for those interested I can share that. (in private message of course)

[triumph]

Around 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.

Again today but like the day quoted, though 3 at Platform simultaneously, unfortunately not all nose to tail being separated by another bus. Have seen all three one behind the other on another occasion a while back.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

So one is always leaving 10-15 minutes late, good to know for if my day plan ever changes.

[triumph]

Whilst I said departing, they appeared to have lots of school kids around but maybe one was finishing a run, still departing though but only to Cohen St Interchange if that is the case - will need to look more carefully. My main point was 3 at once.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Well according to my list, around 3:50pm Renault's are on: 40, 41 and 42 (all departures). The only arrivals into Belconnen is a 31, but to see it at the same time as those 3 it'd have to be very late - it probably converts onto one of those anyway.

[triumph]

Yesterday the rte 31 arrived on time.

[Bus It]

I'd always wondered why they decided to withdraw the old Renault MK2 artics (983-989) 10 years before their older standard sized counterparts. Seems like they would have been ideal for school services particularly in the morning allowing some of the newer artics for rapids. Hmmm, I'm sure they had their reasons.

Either way, it would have been nice to have an extra 10 years of Renault artics.

[triumph]

Renault 930 seen this morning passing through City on an R3 service to Spence.
Wonder why there is such a shortage of other buses that Renaults are appearing on R services which are supposed to be 100% accessible? (At any time, Renaults were exceedingly rare on R3 services.)

Also 927 was seen today so the oldest, briefly retired, bus continues to be active.