LR general discussion

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

I haven't payed too much attention to this whole lightrail thing, mostly cause I feel it's a waste of time, resources and money, and those poor tree , but aside that and among the discussions about it that I have been reading of it over these past few months, there's still something that doesn't seem quite right to me.

I have a basic understanding of how trams work and know that the turning radius is rather limited due to the concertina and carriages length compared to articulated buses.
There's that, but from what all the signs say I've worked out at the busiest time there's going to be at least 4-6 active lightrail services running at the same time up and down Northbourne/Flemington, but from what I've seen, it looks as though there are two tracks (excluding whatever is being used to with the depot) and only the signs of the trams using the two tracks meaning they use the same track but in the opposite direction after each terminus like where it use to at Lilyfield in Sydney. ([EDIT] although that's apparently changed to Dulwich Hill since I was last there). So unless there's a loop like at Central Station or something plus the use of Vernon Circle, I don't quite get how this could work.

Can someone please explain this for me. Possibly with pictures and photos even


Also while I think of it, shouldn't the 'Canberra Metro' topic be under the 'Other Transport' subheading cause it kinda fits there better than under 'Discussion'? just a thought.

[Busfanatic101]

I have a basic understanding of how trams work and know that the turning radius is rather limited due to the concertina and carriages length compared to articulated buses.
There's that, but from what all the signs say I've worked out at the busiest time there's going to be at least 4-6 active lightrail services running at the same time up and down Northbourne/Flemington, but from what I've seen, it looks as though there are two tracks (excluding whatever is being used to with the depot) and only the signs of the trams using the two tracks meaning they use the same track but in the opposite direction after each terminus like where it use to at Lilyfield in Sydney. ([EDIT] although that's apparently changed to Dulwich Hill since I was last there). So unless there's a loop like at Central Station or something plus the use of Vernon Circle, I don't quite get how this could work.

Can someone please explain this for me. Possibly with pictures and photos even

The LRVs should be bidirectional, with a driver's cab at each end. This eliminates the need for them to turn at each end - all they have to do is switch tracks. Take a look at the Gold Coast G:link for an idea of how this might look.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Had a look at a video, I understand now, there's a lane switch just after each starting point.
All cleared up now, thank you.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Just read the TC E-news email, with the confirmation of My Way being used for both buses and trams with tag on/off machines at the stations. The one thing I'm still wondering though is will the light rail be cashless, do any of you know?

...there's a lane switch just after each starting point.

Saw that the other day when I was doing the drawing at Gungahlin.

[Busfanatic101]

Just read the TC E-news email, with the confirmation of My Way being used for both buses and trams with tag on/off machines at the stations. The one thing I'm still wondering though is will the light rail be cashless, do any of you know?

They will most likely have ticket machines on platforms that accept cash and card like G:Link etc. Sort of like the yellow ticket boxes in the underground parking at the Hyperdome.
Sicne drivers won't be handling fares onboard, convinience for passengers (ie. flexible payment options) should prevail over speed of the transaction.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Yes, makes sense.

It also said...

The MyWay (tag on – tag off) system, currently used on buses, will be installed on platforms at all light rail stops.

Which makes me think, wouldn't it be better to have the My Way machines in the actual trams at each door like they did on the Melbourne trams? That way it would prevent people from cheating, tagging on at the wrong time or forgetting when they get off, unless the system makes the My Way machines switch from red to green when the trams pass some sort of detection point.
Any ideas for that?

[Bus 503]

Yes, makes sense.

It also said...Which makes me think, wouldn't it be better to have the My Way machines in the actual trams at each door like they did on the Melbourne trams? That way it would prevent people from cheating, tagging on at the wrong time or forgetting when they get off, unless the system makes the My Way machines switch from red to green when the trams pass some sort of detection point.
Any ideas for that?

Nothing will stop people from fare evading unless there are regular inspections with hefty fines to make sure passengers have valid tickets. I don't think it's policed very well on the trams in Melbourne, and as a result people fare evade lots of the time. I don't mind whether they have the MyWay readers in the tram or on the platform but whatever method they choose needs to be the most efficient way (so not having long queues of people getting off trams and facing a MyWay reader outside to tag off).

[Bus 400]

There will be "On Board Attendants" on the LRV's, presumably they'll be checking MyWay cards & maybe even selling cash tickets.

I do have a sneaky suspicion you may also be able to purchase tickets at Add Value Machines at Gungahlin & City (can tremember if Dickson will have an AVM).

Only Vline gives a rats about fare enforcement in Victoria, except if an international event is coming up.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

[King of Buses]

Just so it is recorded: Tram 3 was the first departure from Mitchell Depot, which occurred moments before midnight on the 11th June 2018. It spent today sitting in a tram sized enclosure on Flemington Road near the Manning Clark Crescent (North) stop. Testing should commence tonight once the overhead goes live.

[Busnerd]

For those who have somehow avoided social media today, LRV007 was towed to Dickson last night, as posted by CBR Metro and annoyingly re-shared by one PTCBR related individual with an excessive need to use emoji's.

It is understood gauge testing will take place over the next two nights between Dickson and Alinga (assuming the track is free of crap/debris/tools/holes) by then. This should see the LRV being dragged by the Unimog with the large foam 'collar'/thing around the outside to test clearances on the line, presumably before they do final platform concreting, set the poles in place along the alignment etc.

[ajw373]

For those who have somehow avoided social media today, LRV007 was towed to Dickson last night, as posted by CBR Metro and annoyingly re-shared by one PTCBR related individual with an excessive need to use emoji's.

It is understood gauge testing will take place over the next two nights between Dickson and Alinga (assuming the track is free of crap/debris/tools/holes) by then. This should see the LRV being dragged by the Unimog with the large foam 'collar'/thing around the outside to test clearances on the line, presumably before they do final platform concreting, set the poles in place along the alignment etc.

Doesn't look like the thing has moved since it was towed there.

Though I did see one today under its own power parked just outside the depot entry.

[Busnerd]

Correct, it was placed there to get local residents/motorists ready to see LRV's in the area, it won't be moving anytime soon, it's just trying to show how far along they in the project that they could get it there.

[Bus 503]

Correct, it was placed there to get local residents/motorists ready to see LRV's in the area, it won't be moving anytime soon, it's just trying to show how far along they in the project that they could get it there.

Not sure where LRV007 has gone but in its place this morning was LRV009 on Northbourne Avenue, situated at the same place.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Finally saw my first Lightrail vehicle today. LRV009 rested on Northbourne south of Dickson.
Photos certainly don't tell the whole picture, it is so much better seeing them with my own eyes, although I'm still not a fan of the red.

[triumph]

Correct, it was placed there to get local residents/motorists ready to see LRV's in the area, it won't be moving anytime soon, it's just trying to show how far along they in the project that they could get it there.

Sylvan Loves Buses referred yesterday to LRV009 'South of Dickson'. I wonder how far South was it when Sylvan saw it? Today it was parked on the Northbound track South of Macarthur Ave about a 1/4 to 1/3 of block towards Condamine St..

[triumph]

Waiting at Northbourne Ave bus stop today an ambulance in emergency mode came past. A fellow traveller commented that when traffic was heavy the emergency services vehicles sometimes used the median and ask "What will they do now?" Interesting question.

Will emergency service vehicles be able to resort to the LR corridor? If that is possible then they might even have gained an advantage. Time will tell for sure.

[ajw373]

I've never once seen an emergency vehicle use the median before. Unless of course you or the passenger are talking about crossing over the median before a set of lights to bypass a queue of cars. In which case they would have been unlikely to have done that on Northborne Ave before anyway because it was too wide and grass.

If anything light rail might give them the option of driving down the track alignment if there is an emergency they cannot get to. It's clearly wide enough and it's not like they need to trigger the lights.

[Busnerd]

I will agree with ajw373, the only time I see them crossing the median is usually at an intersection, and considering LRV's will be travelling at 70km/h unencumbered, I'm not sure that emergency vehicles would just drive into the corridor without letting the light rail operations know they're doing so, I'm sure it'd be quite the shock to see a vehicle pull on to the tracks in front of a tram at full speed, that said I wouldn't discount it, they drive on tracks in other cities so I guess we wait and see.

[triumph]

Came across an interesting item in the engineering report on the proposal to add a light rail right turn from King William St to North Terrace (East) in Adelaide. The limitations of the latest modern multi-module light rail vehicles in Adelaide has effectively made the proposal unfeasable. Adelaide's newest are 5 module Alstom Citadis 302. There is an articulation between each module BUT only horizontally (yaw). This enables sharp curvature with little overhangs. In PITCH however, to accommodate vertical curves (sags, crests) there is only ONE articulation point being at the join of the second to third module (or from the other end, the 3rd and 4th module) and aggravated by stiff bogie suspension. This pitch limitation was a major factor in making the proposal unworkable (the intersection has complex gradients).
Whilst this relates to the Citadis, I wonder if our CAF 5 module trams have a similar articulation arrangement? Searching the internet has so far not answered this question.
It could be very relevant to stage 2 design near Parliament House.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Finally saw a tram stopped at the City Interchange. It is for sure much more visually pleasing to see one in person than looking at the photographs. Still not a fan of the red though, even if it is shiny.

[Busnerd]

I hope there wasn't one in the City Interchange, otherwise it probably derailed!

Although personally I would've preferred they named the stop Civic or City Interchange or something.

[ajw373]

Noticed that testing has intensified this week especially the am peak down Northborne. On wed saw about 5 trams out between Dickson and the city.

They also seem to have either reprogrammed the destination displays or maybe I have never noticed before. But seen trams with destination set as "Alinga Street Service" and "Gungahlin Place Service" (might not have said place but you get the idea). Before this week only really seen "Alinga Street (excl EPIC) etc.

Also saw one saying EPIC and Racecourse.

And side destos have been showing messages to stand back from doors and let passengers off first.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Although personally I would've preferred they named the stop Civic or City Interchange or something.

Yeah I agree, Alinga Street just doesn't feel right, esp considering what the bus Interchange is called.

[Toyota Camry]

The stop should be named as the City Tram Station; this is in line with the adjacent City Bus Station.`

[King of Buses]

The stop should be named as the City Tram Station; this is in line with the adjacent City Bus Station.`

How about just "City Interchange" for all bus/tram platforms? Then give the tram platforms numbers 10/11 (or renumber all the platforms for a different numbering configuration).

Same at Gungahlin - rename the whole thing to "Gungahlin Interchange." Don't need to renumber platforms there though.

"Dickson Interchange" is now the name used by all the stops/platforms service by buses and trams, so why isn't this consistent in Gungahlin and the City?

Woden, Tuggeranong, City West, BCBS, Barton. etc. can stay as they are though, given they're only serviced by buses (for now - you can rename those later).

[Busfanatic101]

The stop should be named as the City Tram Station; this is in line with the adjacent City Bus Station.`

City LRV Station you mean 

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Gets me thinking how they'll decide to name Woden. Will it be Woden, Phillip, Callam Street, Callum Street? So many choices...

[Toyota Camry]

The first victim of Canberra's tram system was hit by a tram this morning; due to this incident and others that will occur in the future, it seems the best option is to fit boom gates to the crossings where trams cross the roadway, this would be the same system used to protect vehicles and pedestrians from trains on heavy rail lines.

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/act/man-hit-by-canberra-tram-while-walking-through-intersection-20190309-p512ww.html

[ajw373]

I was at the Rudd Street intersection when this happened. I didn't see the pedestrian get hit but saw the tram come to a sudden stop, thought it had another issue. 40 minutes later went past it again and police were there but ambulance must have already left.

But really people are bloody stupid. How you can miss a big red tram is beyond me. And whilst waiting at the Bunda St intersection I saw a car turn right off Northborne onto Rudd St and then proceed to stop on the tracks. Waiting for the lights. How long has it been now since you could do that? Ages. And of course no right turn signs etc etc etc. 

[Busnerd]

The best option is to fit boom gates to the crossings

Won't be happening.

ajw373, I have seen the same thing on multiple occasions there, they do it in both directions and stop in the middle when the light goes orange despite there not being any stop lines, have also spotted cars stopping in stupid places at Northbourne/Flemington, Flemington prior to Sandford St and near the EPIC stop, most of which is possibly due to the partially re-surfaced roads meaning stop lines are missing or difficult to see.

[triumph]

But really people are bloody stupid. How you can miss a big red tram is beyond me.

(Mucked that up, posted prematurely, try again.)

It was reported that the victim was wearing earphones.

Wonder how long it will be before someone is asked "Didn't you hear the bell?" "Oh yes, I heard a bell and thought it was just a bicycle!"

On a more serious note, Canberra pedestrians are conditioned to expect freedom from traffic whilst passing through wide median/nature strips between opposing road traffic lanes. Once conditioned, it is very difficult to eradicate absent minded behaviour. It will take time and, in the meantime, all that can be done is for the LRV drivers to be extra alert and cautious. (As are bus driver's at Westfield Belconnen and City bus stations.)

It is not only LRVs though, this forum has recently mentioned pedestrian/bus conflicts (but no media headline for those) too. And general walking against 'Don't Walk' traffic signals is rife. High time for a police enforcement campaign?

Enforcement is not only a law and order issue, and for discouraging impatient pedestrians. TC/ACTION/Canberra Metro also have obligations under the Occupational Health and Safety laws to take all practical steps to protect their staff. Drivers may suffer significant (and possibly long term) psychological injury following a conflict or even a frightening near miss with a red light/Don't Walk runner.

[triumph]

Terminology.
Light Rail or Tram? Both terms are being used for the same thing and it is bugging me.

Considering a traditional tram system mostly sharing road space with traffic and stops just a marker, serviced by single/coupled rigid units. It is clearly not a tram system. But trams have evolved to multi module units using dedicated tracks with stops with platforms (driven in Melbourne now by disability access rules). But in places like Melbourne, the system is also a mixture ranging from traditional to the latest iteration. Just to muddy the waters further the brand new Newcastle Light Rail System uses only up to the minute multi module units but still provides shared sections of street. At some undefined point there is a crossover from tram to light rail (and then to metro).

I don't think there is a clear definitional answer (especially as overseas countries vary in usage too). What I do think is that this forum needs to decide whether to refer to the infrastructure as a Light Rail or Tram system; and the vehicles as Light Rail Vehicles or Trams.

Clearly Transport Canberra and Canberra Metro uses Light Rail with no reference to trams. But Metro? Thats another whole discussion with terminology meaning different things in different countries.

Despite the title Canberra Metro, I think we have what is probably predominantly known as Light Rail with Metro predominantly meaning a more sophisticated system more like heavy rail without the mixed traffic.

Unfortunately, many commentators are attempting to belittle the system here in Canberra by calling it a 'tram', so despite the convenience of the word tram, perhaps Light Rail and LRV are more appropriate for this Forum.

[Busfanatic101]

Terminology.
Light Rail or Tram? Both terms are being used for the same thing and it is bugging me.

Unfortunately, many commentators are attempting to belittle the system here in Canberra by calling it a 'tram', so despite the convenience of the word tram, perhaps Light Rail and LRV are more appropriate for this Forum.

Does it matter? There is only one tram/LRV/Metro system in Canberra, and no room for confusion.

Does it bug you too that people might refer to their IGA as a shop, supermarket, or grocer; and Bus 538 as a long bus, an artic, or a bendy?

[Busnerd]

Only thing to agree upon there is it is not a metro system, if anything you could class it as a 'Premetro' as several light rail systems are called in Europe, but that's another story.

If you're bored and want a read however - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premetro

[Barry Drive]

Terminology.
Light Rail or Tram?

What I do think is that this forum needs to decide whether to refer to the infrastructure as a Light Rail or Tram system; and the vehicles as Light Rail Vehicles or Trams.

If you'll refer to the ACT Bus Gallery and Fleetwiki sites, you will notice that the terminology for the vehicles is consistent: we call them trams. CAF also call the Urbos 100 series as trams. As does Newcastle.

Is it a Light Rail System or a tram line? You can call it either one, I don't think it matters that much. Just don't call it a Metro.

[Northside]

The system serves as a metropolitan transit system, hence metro. Sydney's idea of a 'metro' is just one interpretation. Paris has a completely different interpretation. None are wrong, just different.

[Busnerd]

Not sure how Paris's system is different from the new Sydney system, in most cases you'll find a metro is (more often than not, underground, but doesn't have to be) is usually a high frequency 90 seconds - 4 minute peak frequency high capacity train, travelling at normally no more than 50-60km/h and stopping every 1-2km, most usually have sideways facing seats to increase standing capacity meaning more people can be moved per hour, obviously paris has a LOT of lines, with different rolling stock on different lines, theirs also have a lot more seats than a traditional metro system such as those used in most developed asian cities and London to name a few.

[triumph]

Terminology.
Thanks to all who have responded.

Just to muddy the waters, refer to today's Canberra Times. At page 8 in item about the start, 3rd col, Minister Fitzharris is quoted ".... with the light rail vehicles running up and down the route...."; and at page 9 in item about fines the point is made (last col) that ACT Road Rules refer to 'tram' but the description 'tram' is out of favour with Canberra Metro.

So, officially it is apparently to be considered a Light Rail Vehicle, not a 'tram' (unless, of course, the traffic regs are being considered).

My original concern was the different terminologies being used, now clarified (sort of); but in particular the denigration planted in the public mind by anti-light rail advocates using the term 'tram' to mean obsolete, and conjure up visions of Sydney 'O' class 'toast racks', and Melbourne 'W' classes. To my mind that was a good enough reason to not use the term 'tram'.

If the Forum, as indicated in replies, prefers the convenience of the term 'tram', that's fine.


 

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

It's so dumb, cause at the start many govies were calling them trains...

[Northside]

Not sure how Paris's system is different from the new Sydney system, in most cases you'll find a metro is (more often than not, underground, but doesn't have to be) is usually a high frequency 90 seconds - 4 minute peak frequency high capacity train, travelling at normally no more than 50-60km/h and stopping every 1-2km, most usually have sideways facing seats to increase standing capacity meaning more people can be moved per hour, obviously paris has a LOT of lines, with different rolling stock on different lines, theirs also have a lot more seats than a traditional metro system such as those used in most developed asian cities and London to name a few.

Sydney's metro line will be going up to 100km/hr, with stations spaced far apart through to low-density outer-suburban areas. Paris's metro is typically inner metropolitan, stations close together (relatively), thus stopping frequently. Yes, they both have high frequencies and high capacity (mostly standing) trains, but the two are quite different. But if they both want to be called Metro, then good for them. My point is that it doesn't really matter. Canberra Metro is really just a brand after all.

[Busnerd]

Yes, however both the Sydney and Paris systems are both metro systems, Australia just doesn't know how to implement them properly, it's not designed to run from 50km outside the city with 5 minutes between stops, it is for high density inner city areas, but I'm sure given Sydney's booming population and terrible traffic it will be well patronised.

[Busfanatic101]

Light rail frequency across the day according to the riotact

[Stan butler]

Light rail frequency across the day according to the riotact

Interesting.  So in peak times (7-7.30am) they will run every 6 minutes to civic - but every 10 minutes back to gungahlin. So they will be "banking" up in civic.  So in 30 minutes - 5 will arrive but 3 will leave.  So 2 sitting there.

I wonder how that will work as the platform isn't that long.  I dare say though, that the travelling times for each tram/lr vehicle won't be the same so they will arrive at staggered times and not specifically at every 6 minutes. But am curious about what happen if they do somehow bank up at civic.

At least with a bus, you can easily have multiple buses at one platform - ie several 300 series on platform 1.

[triumph]

The timetable provided by Barry Drive for outbound from Alinga St shows a couple of services starting from Well Station Rd towards Gungahlin. Perhaps these are taken up by positioning from Alinga St. I think it more likely these are from the Depot with the 'spares' at Alinga St positioning back to Dickson for short working to the  City. When Barry Drive posts the rest of the timetable it might be clearer as to what is happening.

[Northside]

The start of the 6 minute frequency from Gungahlin at 7am then takes approximately 30 mins to get to Alinga st, thus then 6 min frequency return starts from then. The 10 min frequency from 7 to 7:30 outbound will be supplemented with new services from the depot for the inbound run. Likewise in the afternoon, there will be some shortworkings both ways to get enough trams ready for the outbound peak frequency. The services departing Gungahlin up to 5:30 will become the services departing Alinga at 6pm. After 5:30 services from Gungahlin will thin out by sending some back to the depot.

[Barry Drive]

So in peak times (7-7.30am) they will run every 6 minutes to civic - but every 10 minutes back to gungahlin. So they will be "banking" up in civic.  So in 30 minutes - 5 will arrive but 3 will leave.  So 2 sitting there.

No. In the 30 minutes between 7 & 7.30 three will arrive at Alinga Street (7.07 - short run from EPIC, 7.09 & 7.24) and four will depart (7.00, 7.10, 7.20 & 7.30).

Only at 7.30 does the frequency increase to every 6 minutes (at Alinga St) since it takes 30 minutes for each tram to arrive.

The reverse pattern occurs in PM peak with the 6 minutes frequency continuing until 6pm from the Alinga St end, but concluding at 5.30pm at Gungahlin.

Not sure when I'll get around to completing the timetable - the table format is extremely time consuming to work with.

[Barry Drive]

The weekday timetable has now been completed. It is based on the GTFS and may be subject to change if the times prove to be unworkable - especially in peak.

For those wondering, there will be a maximum of 10 trams on the line during peak. This becomes 6 during the 10 minute headway and 4 at night and weekends (15 minute headway).

[triumph]

Do hope someone for the historical record can record fleet identities for first LRV carrying balloted passengers tomorrow.
AND first public trip from EACH end on Sat.
(Dammit, I will be away so can't.)

[Busnerd]

All trips will commence at the same time on both days so there won't be a "first vehicle" there will be 6 or more departing at the same time.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

That's the weekend business, triumph is talking about the special ballot for the random lucky few who entered the ballot - gone just after I post this. I missed out cause of the typical unfairness of how Transport Canberra run things now days, but on my way past I saw LRV011 ready for departure at the City.