MyWay - general/operational discussion

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

I just read the latest TC email alert update, and something about it doesn't quite makes sense - to me at least.

Trial to exit from the rear door on Red Rapid bus services now in effect
             
As from Monday 13 February 2017, customers are now able to exit the bus using both the front and rear doors at all stops on Red Rapid 200 services as part of an one month trial.

Ok, it's only 1 month, but still what's the point? Aren't the trams going to be replacing the Red Rapid in the next few years anyway, why not do it for the Blue Rapid or something, cause that's still going to keep going.

[Bus 400]

I just read the latest TC email alert update, and something about it doesn't quite makes sense - to me at least.

Ok, it's only 1 month, but still what's the point? Aren't the trams going to be replacing the Red Rapid in the next few years anyway, why not do it for the Blue Rapid or something, cause that's still going to keep going.

In a few years the light rail is going to replace part of the Blue Rapid in a few years, so once again why bother.....

Why not train users now to exit from all doors now. Bit like training to enter from all doors & if you aren't at the door (either side) when the bus pulls up to the stop. You miss out as the bus leaves straight away.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

[triumph]

Examined my MyWay record today. Times for some trips yesterday were 1 hour later than actual. Seems the end of daylight saving has caught the system or someone napping.

[Barry Drive]

Out of curiosity, was it more than one bus and could you tell which depots?

The problem arises because the MyWay consoles set the time when their update is pushed at the depot - and if this occurs before the 2am changeover, the time will be wrong until the next update occurs.

[Busfanatic101]

Out of curiosity, was it more than one bus and could you tell which depots?

The problem arises because the MyWay consoles set the time when their update is pushed at the depot - and if this occurs before the 2am changeover, the time will be wrong until the next update occurs.

566 and 412 were​ both ok today so it has been fixed by now

[triumph]

The record is incomplete so far (11pm today).

Initial leg to Westfield Belconnen not logged as driver said validator faulty. My companion used it though, and that record shows the wrong time for arrival Westfield Belconnen of 12.45pm (actually 11.45am); Bus446, 906C

Record 1455 12.49pm (actually 11.49am) 900T board at Westfield Belconnen; Bus582.
Record 1456 1.14pm (actually 12.14pm) alight Civic.
Missing record Civic to High Court, route 934; Bus421

Record 1459 3.46pm (actually 2.46pm) 934D board at Parkes Place, National Rose (High Court); Bus606.
Record 1460 4.31pm (actually 3.41pm) alight Westfield Belconnen.
Record 1461 3.53pm (correct) 906C board at Westfield Belconnen; Bus422.
Record 1462 correct for destination.

Note that according to the record we were on two different routes (934/906) and buses (606/422) simultaneously!

Hope that offers some clarification guidance.

[triumph]

There is a typo, sorry. 3.41pm should be 3.31pm.

[triumph]

Checked MyWay account again this evening. There is still no change to Sunday record.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Bought my first legit cash fare ticket in 3 years or something tonight. Rarely ever forget to take my my way card with me, but I left it in my suit pocket
Doing this reminded me of the announcement of how cash fares will no longer be a thing in the very near future. Brings up many questions esp one of how people who forget their my way/TC cards will do.

[triumph]

Bought my first legit cash fare ticket in 3 years or something tonight. Rarely ever forget to take my my way card with me, but I left it in my suit pocket
Doing this reminded me of the announcement of how cash fares will no longer be a thing in the very near future. Brings up many questions esp one of how people who forget their my way/TC cards will do.

Well, on the routes I regularly use, forgotten, failed, or no credit cards; or not enough cash, seems common enough and very rarely indeed are 'sob' stories not accepted. The customer is usually waved on. Have never been on a bus when a ticket inspector was active, so I have no idea what happens then. (I had no problems travelling when my card failed and, later, a replacement card was not yet activated. The situation seemed accepted without question.) 

Another issue on fare collection/card enforcement is the safety of the driver. Years ago I overheard a driver talking to a colleague about fare enforcement - "I won't make a fuss, it is not worth getting punched". A very valid point for a driver operating alone.

Possibly, where children are involved, it may be policy for personal safety reasons, to always allow children to travel. 

Will Light Rail, being a different operator, be so lenient? If the operator is strict, then there will be a lot of angst out there to start with.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

With minors it's definitely a responsibility thing, but I've been on the odd bus where the driver literally refused the boarding of passengers either cause he was in a bad mood or had the same person on more than one occasion giving the same excuses.

Brings up a valid point, how is this going to work for lightrail? I presume lightrail still has drivers now days and is not completely all automatic yet, but from the one time I was in Melbourne riding a few there, the system seemed to work pretty much on trusting the passengers, cause one driver can't control 4-6 entry points.

[Barry Drive]

If the Gold Coast model is any guide, Canberra Metro will have full time ticket inspectors.

It is a contractual obligation for the Light Rail to have x% of ticket compliance. (The actual percentage is not published.)

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[Barry Drive]

Bus 400 mentioned in ACTION Contracts that there's a new contract titled "Ticketing Equipment for Light Rail Integration".

I've read the contract and there isn't much useful information in what's publicly available. But what it suggests is that the much hyped **new ticketing system** will not be ready for 2019. Instead it looks like an extension to the MyWay contract with new equipment (AVM/TVM, platform validators) for the tram stops and should include additional ticketing machines for the extra buses.

I would also assume from this that Downer/Parkeon will be awarded the contract for the new ticketing system and that what's being installed will be compatible with what will be coming later.

If this is the case, then I would expect to see the new Wayfarer 6 ticket machines installed on buses. Apparently, these do just about everything: contactless bank cards, barcodes, 4G data, RTPIS, Wifi, text and radio messaging; and they're compatible with the Wayfarer 200 software so they can be rolled out to all buses before the new system is ready without the need for a changeover period.

[Barry Drive]

As also mentioned elsewhere, 657 onwards entered service this week. They have been fitted with the new Wayfarer 6 console.

The only difference for now is that the paper ticket comes out horizontally, rather than vertically.

[Barry Drive]

TC have announced they will be installing "Ticket Vending Machines" in October 2018.

So only 7 years late.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Yeah, so far I've seen the placements for these two of these, being in front of the office at Tuggeranong and in front of the blue directory pillar in Woden. It's bad enough that management have ordered the staff to cease using the window at Woden, how're the little old laddies and technophobes supposed to use these without help you'd have to wonder.

About time too, here's hoping they allow for cash users.

[King of Buses]

It's bad enough that management have ordered the staff to cease using the window at Woden, how're the little old laddies and technophobes supposed to use these without help you'd have to wonder.

There's a customer service person hanging around during the day. I imagine that is/will be part of their job.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Yeah, but for how long... Ever noticed how often a TC vehicle is parked at the Tuggeranong parking spot, but there's never anyone inside the office, or there is but they ignore you when you tap on the window, same thing with Woden.

[Barry Drive]

That's the Astreo ticket machine from the Parkeon website. We'll soon know if that's what we're getting. (And yes, Sylvan, it takes cash.)



I've also noticed that Transport Canberra have stopped referring to a new ticket system, and are promoting MyWay as the Light Rail ticket system:

Travelling with MyWay is the cheapest way to travel on #TC Bus & Light Rail services. The ticketing system will automatically calculate the cheapest possible fare per passenger based on any eligible concession and fare caps. For further details, visit: https://t.co/Jb2WoOCdgn pic.twitter.com/Fn1VXxULme

— Transport Canberra (@Transport_CBR) September 5, 2018

[triumph]

At one of the 'Consultations' it was said that the Consortium for the Light Rail had to meet a standard for avoiding fare evasion. This could result in the Consortium conducting routine revenue protection activities. Considering the number of ACTION patrons waved aboard with sob stories, expired balances, etc. and a perceived almost zero ACTION revenue protection activity, there might be quite some angst coming for light rail users inclined to such habits.

[Bus 400]

There is actually a tender out for working on some survey about Fare Evasion on the trams https://tenders.act.gov.au/ets/tender/display/tender-details.do?id=91886&action=display-tender-details&returnUrl=%2Ftender%2Fsearch%2Ftender-search.do%3Faction%3Dadvanced-tender-search-open-tender

I haven't checked out the documents yet though.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

[Barry Drive]

The contract requires Transport Canberra to conduct surveys every 6 months (from memory) to determine whether the fare evasion target is being met.

It may be that this tender is for that process. I had wondered how they were going to do it.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

A few years ago when I went to Melbourne to visit my brother and ride the buses and trams there, I used what they had back then the Myki card (don't know if it's still that) and although you were required to tag on and off on the buses, you only needed to tag on with the trams. Would I be right in presuming that for our LR, it'll work the same way, but like the buses, not tagging off will result in the standard cash fare rated charge?

[Snorzac]

The tag on/off on the trams is due to the way their zones work, I believe all but the route 86 and 108 (?) run solely within one zone. If you go out of zone 1 then you are meant to tap off but I have no idea how that is patrolled. I generally tap on and off to be safe on Melbourne teams.

Given Canberra doesn't work on a zone or distance based fare structure yet still requires a touch off I would say the tram will be the same and it will be touch on and off like the buses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[triumph]

Tram tap-off in Melbourne only required for trips wholly within Zone 2 thus getting a lower fare apparently,

[ajw373]

A few years ago when I went to Melbourne to visit my brother and ride the buses and trams there, I used what they had back then the Myki card (don't know if it's still that) and although you were required to tag on and off on the buses, you only needed to tag on with the trams. Would I be right in presuming that for our LR, it'll work the same way, but like the buses, not tagging off will result in the standard cash fare rated charge?

I doubt it. It will be no different to the buses. Don't tag off get charged the full cash fare.

[triumph]

The tag on/off on the trams is due to the way their zones work, I believe all but the route 86 and 108 (?) run solely within one zone. If you go out of zone 1 then you are meant to tap off but I have no idea how that is patrolled. I generally tap on and off to be safe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The routes now are 75, Vermont South; 86, Bundoora RMIT; and 109, Box Hill. These extend into the Zone 1 overlap in Zone   2, thus all trips starting in Zone 1 only attract the Zone 1 fare. Ditto if starting in Zone 2 (the overlap of Zone 1 in Zone 2) and proceeding into Zone 1. BUT if the trip is entirely within  Zone 2 and it's overlap in Zone 1, a lesser fare applies which is gained by tagging off.
myki is still used.

[King of Buses]

An AVM was installed at Tuggeranong Bus Station today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barry Drive]

We have news of all 4 AVMs being operational today.

No official announcement.

[triumph]

From part of my MYWAY record for yesterday:
12.26pm Tag off Rte 15 at Westfield Belconnen    ; actual.
12.45pm Tag on Rte 64N at Charleston after Blak ; actual Rte 3 at Westfield Belco
1.23pm Tag off Rte 64N at Charleston after Hall   ; actual Rte 3 at City Stn.
1.30pm Tag on Rte 313A at Westfield Bus Station ; actual Rte 313 at City Stn
1.44pm Tag off Rte 313A at College St CISAC       ; actual Rte 313 at Woden Stn.
1.48pm Tag on Rte 6 Woden                                ; actual.

Foul ups in the record like this of route numbers and/or locations are not all that unusual. (Tagging foul ups resulting in 'synthetic' entries, also occur from time to time.)

The system must be quite poorly implemented when supposedly GPS based locations can be so far out, and further, that it accepts obvious absurdities such as recorded tag off at College St CISAC Belconnen and a mere 4min later a tag on at Woden Bus Station! Low flying between them would be involved to achieve that.
Less probable, but not impossible, is the 38min between stops in Charleston, and the 14min to travel 3 stops from Westfield Belco to CISAC.

The record never seems to be corrected (even when reported), so could it be assumed the system quality is so poor that gross errors are not flagged and correctable? Or that TC have given up on it pending the mooted new contract? Otherwise, the finger tends to point at the training or culture of operational staff, which seems unlikely as most people tend to make a reasonable effort to get things right.

So is it of any significance? Yes.

An example - police can, in certain circumstances, access MYWAY records, thus a false entry could mislead and result in much un-necessary grief. Likewise, another example - a correct entry could provide an alibi for a registered MYWAY user wrongly suspected/accused of something illegal.
Then there is the general principle that accuracy is important to confidence in any system and useful for any usage reference and/or analysis.

As the good Professor asked "Why is it so".

[Barry Drive]

They won't correct it - no point. And if the fare is wrong (which is unlikely with a flat fare structure), they'd just adjust the balance, not the transactions.

The first problem (route 64) would almost certainly be a driver error. While the system uses GPS to know where it is, it is still the driver's duty to select the correct route. But if a driver forgets to change the route (as in this case) the best course of action is to NOT change it if passengers have tagged on.

The second problem is more likely caused by GPS faults combined with driver either not knowing or not bothering to advance the stops.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Used the new AVM at Woden this evening for the first time. Operates nice and easily just like boarding a bus and talking to someone real, and also answers one concern I had about the lightrail and cash fares.

[Busnerd]

I'm not sure why anyone would have concerns about Light Rail fares just yet.

Regarding the incorrect GPS data discussed above, a big problem in Sydney is having failures in the console which stops it picking up the GPS, this means the driver has to manually advance every stop until the issue rectifies or doesn't...to be honest when you are driving it is easy to forget for several stops, I'm sure many people got a free ride at my hand where I forgot for half a route to advance the stops manually, it was also quite time consuming especially if you didn't pick anyone up for ten stops to then skip forward 10 in a row, as I usually didn't change it whilst I was driving as it was too much of a distraction so I would leave it until I stopped.

In most cases you're more likely to be undercharged in this instance so most wouldn't complain, as Barry Drive said above, with a flat fare this doesn't really matter at all, I do agree with your comments as above regarding police accessing the data however i would say this is already done at a minimal level and the chances of a GPS failure occuring at the same time that you are accused of a crime would be very slim.

[Barry Drive]

and also answers one concern I had about the lightrail and cash fares.

Fairly sure I mentioned in Sep that the Parkeon machine accepts cash. And while I've not tried it yet, it looks like you can purchase a cash fare with a debit or credit card (tap and go only).

My uncertainty was whether the bus station machines would include single trip tickets, but they've gone with one version of the interface for all machines.

[Busnerd]

Used the City Bus Station machine today, can confirm you can buy 1 - 5 single journey tickets per transaction which allows you to pay cash or contactless card. Daily tickets also available on there as well, assuming it will be identical on the LR Stops too.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

My concern was that cash fares weren't going to be a thing with the lightrail from what I've read and heard from many sources. This will only remain a concern if these AVM's aren't at every LR stop.

I also tried every tab, so I'm aware of every function a patron can access with these machines. I was a little disappointed that I couldn't load my card with an extra 5¢ for fun.

[Busnerd]

Your many sources are all wrong, before construction even started the plan was always to have an integrated ticketing system across both modes which as in all other cities means being able to use and buy the same tickets, whether that be cash single, return, daily tickets etc. or a standard smart card fare.

All LR stops will have ticket machines, they *should* be identical to the new ones in the Bus Stations, unsure if there will be any difference to the colour or the background colour of the screen (hoping it is red considering the bus station ones are blue!)

As these machines are identical to the Sydney ones, the top up values are the same as theirs, IIRC are generally a selection of some of the following $5, $10, $20, $30, $40, $50 etc.

[Barry Drive]

We have news of all 4 AVMs being operational today.

No official announcement.

We have an official announcement

We also have an ACT Bus news article

Sylvan - I recommend you take the time to read one or both of these. You will find these sources are far more reliable.

[Busfanatic101]

Meanwhile in Melbourne...
https://amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/thousands-of-commuters-set-to-use-myki-on-their-phone-20190127-p50twe.html


We'll get there one day?

[Barry Drive]

No, we won't have a MyWay card app*. As the Minister keeps pointing out, the "new ticketing system currently in procurement phase" will solve all problems**.

It will accept closed-loop payments (MyWay*** and registered accounts) and also open-loop payments (Visa/MasterCard, Apple Pay etc.)

This will require equipment with a constant data connection, so MyWay  top ups should be available hourly, provided the back end supports this.

* PTV recently renewed the Myki contract without altering the system requirements (other than new card readers for trams and train stations). So this is their way of introducing mobile phone payments. For TC to consider a similar app would be a waste of money with the new system 12-18 months away.

** a upgraded system is expected in Perth later this year. It may be very similar to what we will have next year.

*** in theory, MyWay cards as we know them will not be necessary - they could be replaced with RFID chips in school IDs and driver's licences.

[verbatim9]

We have an official announcement

We also have an ACT Bus news article

Sylvan - I recommend you take the time to read one or both of these. You will find these sources are far more reliable.

^^They need a vending machine at the Airport stop, which also dispensers Myway cards.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

If they do that, then they'd also need one at Kingston Railway Station too.

[triumph]

We have an official announcement

The Official Announcement mentioned four of the major stations with AVMs and 'Belconnen Coming Soon'.

This may be another problem arising from the divided control of the Station at the Westfield Mall. Westfield provided the infrastructure and is apparently responsible for it. A few years ago, many of the platform 2 pavers came progressively loose but complaints were deflected by ACTION/Transport Canberra saying it was a Westfield responsibility. It took years before the pavers were relaid (and some are now coming loose again). It appears from the delay, that ACTION/TC were rendered quite impotent in getting a timely rectification.
Presumably, the provison of infrastructure (power and communication facilities) to service the machine must involve Westfield. If the paver experience is anything to go by, 'soon' might be rather a rather elastic concept.

[Barry Drive]

Yeah. And there's still no sign of where it will be installed.

I would suggest the best option is inside the mall, replacing the NXTBUS terminal which no one uses.

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Yup, that totally works...


As a 90yo pensioner tries to shove a $5 note into the receiver before he gets cut off by his nurse.

[triumph]

At one of the 'Consultations' it was said that the Consortium for the Light Rail had to meet a standard for avoiding fare evasion. This could result in the Consortium conducting routine revenue protection activities. Considering the number of ACTION patrons waved aboard with sob stories, expired balances, etc. and a perceived almost zero ACTION revenue protection activity, there might be quite some angst coming for light rail users inclined to such habits.

Light rail inspections are intensive. I have been checked numerous times, including twice last Monday.

There however, seems to be no change in bus revenue protection. The chance of being checked is near zero (if my experience is anything to go by).

How much bus revenue is being missed? Would it be cost effective to ramp up bus ticket checking? The light rail activity suggests significant revenue loss potential, and that it is cost effective.

A related issue is faulty validators. I was recently on a full (nearly all adult commuters) peak hour bus with an inoperative validator. Inoperative validators are not particularly rare. Again how much revenue is being missed from this cause? Would better maintenance be cost effective?

[Sylvan Loves Buses]

Interesting, I've only had 1 check and have ridden the trams more than 10 times now.
I think on the buses checking should be more of a thing, although with how tight the new network is now it probably would've be as effective as the lightrail checks. TO's were doing it sometimes on rapids last network at the interchanges, but not often enough imo.

[Busfanatic101]

With the driver directly interacting with passengers boarding a bus, there technically should be little fare evasion on a bus, compared to light rail where anyone can walk on and off without potentially ever coming into contact with a staff member.

[Busfanatic101]

Interesting, I've only had 1 check and have ridden the trams more than 10 times now.

10 is hardly a sufficient sample size but considering bus checks were 1 in several hundred trips, 1/10 is already a lot.

[verbatim9]

Is MyWay getting an upgrade to allow for contactless payments in the future?