Network 2019 - the final version

Started by King of Buses, October 16, 2018, 07:53:41 am

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Busfanatic101

I've seen people waiting at stops today not serviced on weekends in the current network. With some tracking applications unusable and Google maps ahead, it's clearly throwing off a portion of the population.

Busnerd

Not sure how it is confusing people, the new timetables start tomorrow, today is the same as it has been for the last few years, it is clearly a sunday and therefore would run the existing sunday network.

Busfanatic101

Yes but people who depend on google maps would think the new timetable has already started.

Busnerd

I would say most people using the buses on weekends would be regular commuters anyway and would know what timetable is running, I rarely see many tourists who bother to use the bus network besides the occasional 81 trip, most either walk or get a hire car as most of the attractions are too far apart to easily get to by public transport.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Barry Drive on April 28, 2019, 10:53:11 amAlso, new timetables have begun to appear at suburban stops.

Of all the days to forget my Network '17 Weekend book to travel on the last 961 from Mawson only for it to come 8 minutes late without me knowing, this was not a good one.

Toyota Camry

Social media is painting a picture of an absolute disaster on the buses this morning; it will be interesting to see if the new network remains after this week, or if an emergency reversion to the old network takes place.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 29, 2019, 10:39:58 amSocial media is painting a picture of an absolute disaster on the buses this morning; it will be interesting to see if the new network remains after this week, or if an emergency reversion to the old network takes place
Complaints about this network are nothing new. An 'emergency revert' would just cause more confusion. As far as I could see  most services ran to plan and to schedule this morning. There is absolutely no reason they would back down now after all they've done.

Busnerd

I had no issues this morning other than forgetting what stop the R6 went from, thought it left from the 'new' stop on Alinga but it actually went from Platform 3, I also later realised the stop on Alinga just before Marcus Clarke that I thought was closed is now in use again, besides that I had no issues getting around.

Did speak to one driver of the 22 who claimed she had gotten lost (presumably on the school run she had just finished) and was having a bit of a laugh, I told her not to worry and that everyone is probably lost today, People will settle into their new routines in a week or two, those who absolutely hate the new network, if they really hate it will not use it, everyone else will adapt with some grumbling then get over it as the way it is.

I agree with Busfanatic101, I highly doubt they will revert the network because some people couldn't figure out how to use the new network.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well then, apart from the craze of the strange number of emergency vehicles out this evening I think I'm actually not minding the network so far. It's going to take a little getting use to Wannissa routes in Weston, but I think it'll be alright.

I felt that way until I got to Cooleman Court and noticed the screen said it was an Interchange and there was a 70 waiting for us so we could follow it to Woden after having to wait for an additional 3 minutes somehow even though the bus arrived at Namadgi 6 minutes late...
After looking at the timetable I decided to bring with me just-in-case I noticed something I didn't examine earlier (cause I couldn't yet care), the same idiot/s have written up the time sheets. If there's going to be anything more annoying about this network other than... this network, it's going to be the fact that through the peak periods, there's going to be many routes that go the same way sniffing-diesel-where-the-sun-don't-shine each other till they split. I'm sure the drivers have been told to watch out and not do what every driver has always done and drive past cause another bus is already sitting at a bus stop cause it is blue rapid and it's not and doesn't care to slow and look just in case for the first few days, I'm sure they'll get back into that routine in no time.

We thought it was bad enough that there was so much wastage with dead-runs in the past few networks, well say hello to Network '19!!!

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on April 22, 2019, 05:44:21 am
Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 21, 2019, 09:03:54 pmthis leaves the Renault PR100.3s in particular extremely likely to disappear after next Friday.
I seriously doubt this will be the case during peak, there's a lot of rapids more now than ever, I'm sure there's going to be a few if not most Renault's out. Still, I've been wrong before, we'll just have to wait and see.
I was not wrong, I spotted a 3 on the way to Woden, and every single 71 and 6 passing the opposite way I was travelling on the exact same routes between 5:30 and 6:30 this evening were 2's.

Thinking back to my disgust as I was looking through the timetable book imagining one of those smashing-face-through-table gif memes on rapid repeat, I did see something that pleased me - they've f***ing finally stopped using 'station' as the Interchange names.

To finish off, I saw quite a few R5's as steer-tags, and here was me thinking
Quote from: Sylvan...and I thought steer-tags were not allowed on Langdon Avenue..."

triumph

Ventured out on the new network this afternoon.

Didn't take long. At first point where R3 diverges in Spence from the old 15/315, the driver's 'autopilot' cut in and we turned right into Alpen St instead of left. Easy escape by rejoining correct route via minor street Clifford Cresc. This was the only hiccup experienced.

But in the City, the Interactive Panel outside Maccas showed 56,57, and 58 incorrectly departing from Platform 1. Oh dear, how could they so badly misdirect patrons? Platform 1 is now far away on the other side of Northbourne Ave in Alinga St. Actual departure platform is now 10 (significantly, formerly no.1) at Bailey's Corner. It would be better to switch the display right off than show such serious misinformation. It seems likely to me that this was happening all day and implies that numerous staff on hand didn't see any need to regularly verify the displays' accuracy. Very poor PR and reflection on IT Transport Canberra's IT experts.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 29, 2019, 10:39:58 amSocial media is painting a picture of an absolute disaster on the buses this morning; it will be interesting to see if the new network remains after this week, or if an emergency reversion to the old network takes place.
There is no ability to do a "reversion". And what would happen to all those new services in Gungahlin and Molonglo?

Where there is room to move is the light rail. While the current operating frequency is based on the original contract, with some negotiations (and obviously more money to Canberra Metro) the tram frequency could be increased after 6pm and also weekends without too much trouble. To alter the bus timetables or frequency would be much more complex.

About the only thing which could be done in the short term is to move some bus stopping locations in the interchanges.

In this Canberra Times article, Minister Fitzharris denies there's any problems, says there is capacity to add extra services, but rules out any "tweaks" until the end of the year. She also "played down concerns" that there would be insufficient drivers to cover weekend work.

So there's that.

Northside

From what I can read between the lines, most complaints are because people are new to the numbers and locations of new services, so they are spending more time than usual making connections. Once they work out where to go, that will speed up.

I also note that Google maps adds way too much time in between connections, which paints a false picture of the new duration. For example, Dickson to Woden interchanges takes 7 mins on the tram and 17 mins on the bus with an interchange of 120m and one set of lights. Yet Google tells me the trip will take 37 mins in peak. So it's added 12 minutes of wait time - 50% of the journey! Given each route has frequencies of max 6 mins wait, a passenger will see 2-3 services depart in that wait time!

Kippax to Woden apparently takes 63 mins, but only 55 mins on the 2 buses and a connection at the same platform in Belco! Again, 12 mins will see a lot of R4s pass you in that time!

I assume Google is trying to factor in late running, but you're not comparing apples with apples. Give us the actual times and people can add in what they think is a reasonable time to make a connection.

Snorzac

I did notice that this a similar issue when using the TC Trip planner to plan my trip. The R3 I was meant to connect to was meant to arrive at the airport at 0910 or something similar, I got an R2 about 20min later than planned as I was a bit slow getting out of bed and was still at the airport by 0910. 

The journey planner also recommends changing on London Cct which involves walking between two stops, thankfully I know better but so someone who isn't familiar with the stop layout or with Canberra, this can over complicate things. Coming from Kippax on the R2 needing to transfer to an airport bound R3 it makes a lot more sense to transfer before the City Interchange where the buses share the same stops. Westfield Station is my preference but Rimmer Street as per googles suggestion makes a lot more sense.

triumph

Saw a 'Bruce Shuttle' service in Belconnen. Found it in TC web site.
There is a weekdays only shuttle to Bruce, UIC, and Calvary. Essentially a replacement for part of old route 3. The route is not numbered and the route number is replaced by 'Shuttle' in the destination. About a 40min interval during the day only.

There is a similar AMC Shuttle between Woden, the Canberra Hospital and the AMC. It also operates only during the day at roughly 1 1/2hr intervals, and only Wed - Sun (same schedule each day).

Toyota Camry

It appears that buses longer than 12 metres are banned from the R3; despite heavy steer tag and articulated utilisation on the R4, and heavy articulated utilisation on the R2, it does not appear that a single sighting has been made of any non-standard buses on the R3. I am unsure as to which part of the route is the issue, but suspect it is the eastern section; former route 315 was serviced regularly by articulated and steer tag vehicles.

Snorzac

I spotted 510 on an R3 yesterday afternoon.

Busnerd

Quote from: Toyota Camry on May 03, 2019, 10:22:12 amIt appears that buses longer than 12 metres are banned from the R3; despite heavy steer tag and articulated utilisation on the R4, and heavy articulated utilisation on the R2, it does not appear that a single sighting has been made of any non-standard buses on the R3. I am unsure as to which part of the route is the issue, but suspect it is the eastern section; former route 315 was serviced regularly by articulated and steer tag vehicles.
So they're using only darts on the route then? As most modern rigid buses are all longer than 12m...perhaps research before making wild claims.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on May 03, 2019, 10:22:12 amIt appears that buses longer than 12 metres are banned from the R3; despite heavy steer tag and articulated utilisation on the R4, and heavy articulated utilisation on the R2, it does not appear that a single sighting has been made of any non-standard buses on the R3. I am unsure as to which part of the route is the issue, but suspect it is the eastern section; former route 315 was serviced regularly by articulated and steer tag vehicles.
Did you consider that perhaps there isn't the capacity demands to warrant using STAGs and artics? The busy section between Belco and civic overlap with R2/R4 anyway (which you state use larger buses), and the remainder is nothing more than a suburban service in belco and the old 11 which I only ever saw using standard buses. It does not do Tuggers-Civic by itself like the R4, nor does it handle lots of transfers of people wanting to go to Woden from local services in Calwell/Erindale like the R5.

triumph

Quote from: triumph on April 29, 2019, 11:08:06 pmBut in the City, the Interactive Panel outside Maccas showed 56,57, and 58 incorrectly departing from Platform 1. Oh dear, how could they so badly misdirect patrons? Platform 1 is now far away on the other side of Northbourne Ave in Alinga St. Actual departure platform is now 10 (significantly, formerly no.1) at Bailey's Corner. It would be better to switch the display right off than show such serious misinformation. It seems likely to me that this was happening all day and implies that numerous staff on hand didn't see any need to regularly verify the displays' accuracy. Very poor PR and reflection on IT Transport Canberra's IT experts.

Disgusted to observe today (3rd) that nothing has changed. I was advised that it had been noticed and TC had been notified. But obviously no effective action yet. To guide an elderly person (for example) all the way to Plat 1 and then they needing to go back to Plat 10, miss the service and wait for the next, is very unkind to say the least, and some would say it verges on 'elder abuse'.

Busnerd

I don't think that in any way would be 'elder abuse' in fact, most elderly people either wouldn't be able to read the small orange text, and most probably wouldn't even notice it considering they're mounted fairly high, as a regular PT user myself I often notice half the information on the nxt bus screens is wrong or inconsistent anyway so I usually don't use them.

triumph

Quote from: Busnerd on May 05, 2019, 08:48:12 amI don't think that in any way would be 'elder abuse' in fact, most elderly people either wouldn't be able to read the small orange text, and most probably wouldn't even notice it considering they're mounted fairly high, as a regular PT user myself I often notice half the information on the nxt bus screens is wrong or inconsistent anyway so I usually don't use them.
Not quite sure how to respond to your assumptions on senior citizens. What do you think of as 'elder'? Only those in medium/high care nursing facilities occasionally venturing into town by bus? Age affects in many different ways, but many 'elderly' people (some in their late 90s and even over 100) retain and use driving licences with appropriate visual acuity requirements (enforced by regularly required medicals), but some of these folk, when not driving, would struggle to walk additional distances to Plat 1 and then back to Plat 10 City Interchange, due (say) to hip and knee issues. They plan bus journeys carefully to limit walking to their capacity (which can vary quite a lot, day to day and even during the day). Many 'elderly' pride themselves on independence and might very well refer to the panels (I know one who regularly does so).

May I politely suggest you give some thought to what appear to be your preconceived notions of what an 'elderly' person is like.

Thank you for your comments on your use of the panels, effectively they support my view that the panels should be turned off if seriously inaccurate. 

Busfanatic101

Quote from: triumph on May 06, 2019, 11:19:37 pmNot quite sure how to respond to your assumptions on senior citizens. What do you think of as 'elder'? Only those in medium/high care nursing facilities occasionally venturing into town by bus? Age affects in many different ways, but many 'elderly' people (some in their late 90s and even over 100) retain and use driving licences with appropriate visual acuity requirements (enforced by regularly required medicals), but some of these folk, when not driving, would struggle to walk additional distances to Plat 1 and then back to Plat 10 City Interchange, due (say) to hip and knee issues. They plan bus journeys carefully to limit walking to their capacity (which can vary quite a lot, day to day and even during the day). Many 'elderly' pride themselves on independence and might very well refer to the panels (I know one who regularly does so).

May I politely suggest you give some thought to what appear to be your preconceived notions of what an 'elderly' person is like.

Thank you for your comments on your use of the panels, effectively they support my view that the panels should be turned off if seriously inaccurate. 
The point is it does not target anyone, it would confuse everyone equally. So it is not elder abuse just as it is not child abuse, bus spotter abuse, middle-aged commuter abuse, or [insert anything here] abuse.

Busnerd

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on May 07, 2019, 11:23:16 amThe point is it does not target anyone, it would confuse everyone equally. So it is not elder abuse just as it is not child abuse, bus spotter abuse, middle-aged commuter abuse, or [insert anything here] abuse.
Yep, perhaps I could have gone without the long winded excuse but it is still not 'elder abuse' nor is my dictionary definition of what an 'elder' is, up for extensive discussion.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on May 07, 2019, 11:23:16 am[insert anything here] abuse.

How about Canberra's large population of 'less-able' (disabled) patrons?

triumph

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 08, 2019, 04:58:08 amHow about Canberra's large population of 'less-able' (disabled) patrons?
The, to me, obvious catch-all choice is 'customer'.

Quote from: triumph on May 04, 2019, 12:13:10 am...., is very unkind to say the least, and some would say it verges on 'elder abuse'.
Note I didn't claim it to be unarguably 'abuse'. By-the-way 'abuse' does not have to be 'targeted' or 'malicious', it can arise from such aspects as carelessness, lack of consideration, etc.

However, much as it is interesting to debate, perhaps the topic is drifting from Forum purposes, and from the original point that TC had ample opportunity to have the panels showing correct information. But if they can't for whatever reason, rather than mislead, TC should turn them off.


triumph

Back to the original point. Today the panel outside Maccas in the City Interchange is STILL advising departures of 56, 57, 58 as from platform 1.

TC is being very foolish in not correcting this. Just imagine if a transferring child took guidance from the panel, got confused as a result, caught the wrong bus, had to be collected or return from some point remote from destination, and the media got hold of it. In the present climate it would make headlines and acutely embarass their Minister.


triumph

That panel outside Maccas at the City Interchange is continuing to display Platform 1 incorrectly for Platform 10. Further comment would involve severely intemperate words ...................

(One thing seems probable from this saga - TC does not monitor this Forum.)

Sylvan Loves Buses

There's two things also lacking for the new platform two.

No ****ing seats
Quote from: triumph'elder abuse'
yup, and there's quite a lot of them there now I'm noticing,
and no next bus panel, which is rather inconvenient esp as the stop before has one.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: triumph on May 16, 2019, 11:18:04 pmThat panel outside Maccas at the City Interchange is continuing to display Platform 1 incorrectly for Platform 10. Further comment would involve severely intemperate words ...................

(One thing seems probable from this saga - TC does not monitor this Forum.)
Why don't you update us when there is a change, rather than when there isn't. Also, you should send them the feedback via the formal channels (ie. Access Canberra) if it bothers you so much. 
I don't hear you complaining about 'child abuse' regarding the fact only 3.2 digits of school bus routes fit within the screen. Do I detect some bias here? Get over it.

triumph

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on May 17, 2019, 10:27:59 amWhy don't you update us when there is a change, rather than when there isn't. Also, you should send them the feedback via the formal channels (ie. Access Canberra) if it bothers you so much.
I don't hear you complaining about 'child abuse' regarding the fact only 3.2 digits of school bus routes fit within the screen. Do I detect some bias here? Get over it.

Thank you for your suggestion to send feedback. Not necessary though, as I have already noted, it has been reported to TC some time back.


Interesting remark concerning school buses. I have never seen a school bus service on a panel. I can't be biased if I didn't know. Perhaps have not been in the right place at the right time. Your comment however, reinforces that the situation is broader and thus more unsatisfactory.

To me it is important for the success and acceptance of public transport (and the wider benefits resulting), that organisations delivering it do it professionally. It concerns me when things like incorrect advice on the panels, so easily avoided or corrected, are not fixed in a timely manner. It becomes annoying. In business it is very well known that a bad customer experience can do vastly more harm to the reputation of the business than quite a number of good experiences.

You (and Busnerd) seem to think that misleading TC customers, thereby potentially damaging the reputation further of public transport, is not an issue of any significance, and simply doesn't matter. Perhaps with the special knowledge and familiarity (and sometimes narrow focus) that enthusiasm can bring, that is quite plausible and understandable.

To my mind, one of the functions of the Forum is a platform where both the broad aspects and the minutiae of specialist interest and views can be reported and/or aired. I am sorry I bored you with an apparently different point of view. But I don't apologise for posting progress or non-progress (when there should have been).

With any luck, next time I am in the City, I will find the Platform 1/10 problem will have been fixed. Perhaps the school bus issue at the same time.
 

     

Busfanatic101

I'm not saying they shouldn't fix it, I just feel like you're making a very big deal of it. Anyhow, the time spent reminding this forum of the issue would be better spent reminding TC by submitting more feedback forms :) 
The school bus display was in Woden, and now that I think about it, it was 9:50am so I don't know why it was showing on the screen.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I saw that on the display at Woden a few days ago too, I actually laughed as to how ridiculous it was to look at, 204 and what looked to be another 4. I was assuming it was probably the 508 replacement, as that was one of the very few that use to drop off at Woden before travelling on.
Here's the thing though, I'm still not getting why they changed the school runs from 3 to 4 digit numbers, cause of the new network the highest number has been made the 182, this should mean they have about 800 other numbers to choose from, why would they go to 4 digits esp as the Renault's only just fit the number on the side desto and the gas MAN make the number so tiny you can barely see it from a distance (on the side and rear)?

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 18, 2019, 01:13:28 pmHere's the thing though, I'm still not getting why they changed the school runs from 3 to 4 digit numbers, cause of the new network the highest number has been made the 182, this should mean they have about 800 other numbers to choose from, why would they go to 4 digits esp as the Renault's only just fit the number on the side desto and the gas MAN make the number so tiny you can barely see it from a distance (on the side and rear)?

Don't they actually display the destination though instead of just saying school bus now? If so, the 4 digits will distinguish school runs and reduce confusion. Or am I imagining things?

Sylvan Loves Buses

Nupp, they still say school bus, and the overhead display at Woden says it too.

Buzz Killington

The four digit route numbers are ridiculous.

Snorzac

Quote from: Buzz Killington on Yesterday at 11:52:05 amThe four digit route numbers are ridiculous.

Given there is no more three digit numbers (aside from the Lanyon express services), I really didn't see the need for four digit school bus numbers


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