December 09, 2019, 02:38:55 pm

Network 2019 - the final version

Started by King of Buses, October 16, 2018, 08:53:41 am

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King of Buses

October 16, 2018, 08:53:41 am Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 12:14:10 pm by Barry Drive
Some details of the final version of Network 19 are being made available today.

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/canberra-news/up-to-50-canberra-schools-will-still-lose-dedicated-bus-services-20181015-p509qx.html



Clicking image opens larger format

I'm presuming more details will be available later.

Barry Drive

October 16, 2018, 09:45:36 am #1 Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 10:42:58 am by Barry Drive
Full list of routes, based on the map:

R1 Gungahlin to City - tram line (unchanged)
R2 Fraser West to COC via Belconnen & City (unchanged)
R3 Spence to BBP via Belconnen & City (extended to BBP)
R4 Belconnen to Tuggeranong via City & Woden (formerly City to Lanyon)
R5 Lanyon to City via Erindale, Woden, Barton & Russell (change to National Cct)
R6 City West to Woden via South Canberra (not to Weston)
R7 City to Chapman via Weston (yes: Chapman!)
R8 Belconnen to Gungahlin (unchanged)
R9 Belconnen to Watson via Bruce & Dickson (change to Thynne St)
R10 City to Denman Prospect

18 Gungahlin to Mitchell via Harrison
19/20 Gungahlin / Forde / Bonner / Amaroo loop
21/22 Gungahlin / Throsby / Harrison / Franklin / Palmerston loop
23/24 Gungahlin / Palmerston / Crace / Nicholls loop
25/26 Amaroo / Moncrieff / Taylor / Casey loop
27 Gungahlin to Casey via Moncrieff & Ngunnawal
28 Gungahlin to Casey via Ngunnawal

30 Belconnen to Dickson via Kaleen & Giralang
31 Belconnen to City via Kaleen, Dickson, Ainslie & Braddon (following old Route 7)
32 Belconnen to City via Macquarie, Cook & Aranda (old Route 40)

40 Belconnen to Fraser West via Florey, Latham, Kippax and Charnwood
41 Belconnen to Fraser West via Evatt, Melba, Flynn & Tillyard Dr
42 Belconnen to Fraser via Page, Scullin, Melba & Flynn
43 Belconnen to Evatt via McKellar (Route 12 except via Coulter Dr)
44 Belconnen to Kippax via West Macgregor & Holt (same as now)
45 Belconnen to Kippax via Weetangera, Hawker & Higgins (exact same as Route 17)

50 City to Watson via Miller St, Dickson & Downer
51 City to Dickson via O'Connor & Lyneham (north half of Route 1)
53 National Musuem to Dickson via Braddon, Ainslie & Hackett (back to using Gooreen St)
54 City to Majura Park (with peak stops at Campbell Park)
55 City to ADFA loop (same as Route 9)
56 City to Fyshwick via South Canberra (current Route 4 then Fyshwick)
57 City to Woden via Garran, Hughes, Yarralumla, PH & Parkes
58 City to Woden via Curtin, Deakin PH & Parkes

60/61 Woden / Mawson / Farrer / Isaacs / O'Malley loop
62 Woden to Mawson via Lyons, Chifley, Pearce & Torrens
63 Woden to Weston via Waramanga, Fisher & Stirling
64 Woden to Chapman via Weston & Rivett
65 Woden to Chapman via Weston, Holder & Duffy
66 Woden to Weston via Lyons, Coombs, Wright, Denman Propect

70 Woden to Tuggeranong via Weston & Kambah West
71 Woden to Tuggeranong via Weston & Kambah East
72/73 Tuggeranong / Oxley / Wanniassa / Monash loop
74/75 Tuggeranong / Erindale / Fadden / Chisholm / Gilmore / Richardson loop
76 Tuggeranong to Calwell via Wanniassa, Gowrie, Chisholm & Richardson
77 Tuggeranong to Erindale via Monash & Gowrie
78 Tuggeranong to Chisholm via Bonython, Isabella Plains & Richardson
79 Tuggeranong to Calwell via Isabella Plains & Theodore

80 Tuggeranong to Conder via Banks
81 Tuggeranong to Conder via Bonython, Gordon & Banks

180 City to Conder via Tugg Pkwy & Banks [PEAK]
181 City to Conder via Tugg Pkwy, Gordon & Banks [PEAK]
182 City to Conder via Monaro Hwy, Chisholm Shops & Calwell Shops [PEAK]

Toyota Camry

This change is a huge letdown for Lanyon Valley passengers; it is the R5 that should have been cut, not the R4, as these people want a direct trip to Tuggeranong, Woden and Civic, they are not wanting to visit Calwell, Erindale, Forrest, Barton and Russell.

I am surprised also that route 41 has been extended from Fraser East to Fraser West; I believe that patronage is very low on this section of route 14. It may be necessary for Fraser West to be upgraded from a terminus to a bus station to handle the number of buses it will be handling; I believe it will be around 10 departures per hour during the day, and 17 departures per hour in peaks.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Wow, how typical... Just by looking at the map it looks to me like they barely took in much of the feedback that they got, or at least didn't redesign it properly for what was given. So many of those direct routes are given back but with no stops added.

My main concern is for Kambah, obviously cause I live there, at least they decided to leave the way they go and not have an annoying pointless switchback, but I feel there's gonna be quite a few annoyed patrons cause of an extension to Cooleman on both the routes and more walking forced upon those in the south west area to walk to the Park n ride stop for a slightly more convenient route.
I'm really disappointed frankly. So many of those loops are the same, the fact that this'll force patrons to ride several more buses/vehicles to get to work or whatever they think is encouraging more people to ride the buses when in fact it'll likely do the exact opposite.

lukeo25

I'm awaiting news about the service to Hume.

Busfanatic101

At least Weston Creek isn't the complete mess that it was...
Really need the revised frequencies to comment further on this

Northside

I don't understand why the 23/24 need to detour to connect with the R8. I thought there were plans to add a new bus stop on Gundaroo Dr just south of Abena for this connection.

I'm still disappointed by the lack of Rapid Routes in Gungahlin. Looking at the old proposed frequencies, feeder routes to Gungahlin TC had lower frequencies than they have now. I hope this improves. You can combine the 27 and 28 pretty easily which can allow for the R8 to be extended to service Mirrabai and a direct, frequent route to Moncrieff.

Down south, I still don't understand why the 180 and 181 don't service Tuggeranong TC. If you had the two routes simply as peak extensions from Tuggers to the city, then you can have a combined frequent peak express to Tuggeranong and you don't need to run 181s and 81s (and 180/80) at the same time because the peak route completely replaces the local. It's just weird that they don't consider this!

King of Buses

Quote from: Northside on October 16, 2018, 03:16:14 pm
Down south, I still don't understand why the 180 and 181 don't service Tuggeranong TC. If you had the two routes simply as peak extensions from Tuggers to the city, then you can have a combined frequent peak express to Tuggeranong and you don't need to run 181s and 81s (and 180/80) at the same time because the peak route completely replaces the local. It's just weird that they don't consider this!


They'd probably say diverting it via Tuggeranong would add too much time to the route - which would be rather ironic. I wouldn't object to it though (and I'm a resident of the region). Surprised the 180/181 aren't one route that only runs as far as Lanyon, allowing connections to the 80/81 there (like the 182 is). Either way would mean there isn't that duplication in Conder/Banks/Gordon (not that I really object to more choice of buses to catch!)

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on October 16, 2018, 12:36:39 pm
Really need the revised frequencies to comment further on this


And yeah, I feel the same about that. That would certainly help with judging things.

Quote from: Toyota Camry on October 16, 2018, 10:22:43 am
This change is a huge letdown for Lanyon Valley passengers; it is the R5 that should have been cut, not the R4, as these people want a direct trip to Tuggeranong, Woden and Civic, they are not wanting to visit Calwell, Erindale, Forrest, Barton and Russell.


I'm OK with the R5 being the Lanyon rapid rather than the R4, given the local Lanyon routes run to Tuggeranong. Going via Calwell and Erindale to Woden isn't all that different to going via Tuggeranong (I'll find it more convenient this way TBH). Having to go via Forrest, Barton and Russell to get to the City is disappointing though, but at least it doesn't also run via Hughes and Deakin as the original R5 was meant to in the original Rapid network announcement!


Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: lukeo25 on October 16, 2018, 12:27:35 pm
I'm awaiting news about the service to Hume.


You and me both, that and Symonston. I've been a regular on the 80/88 to Symonston once to twice a week over the past few months, I really hope something is still considered for that, cause it's a much quicker and quieter way to get to south Narrabundah than the 6 from Woden.

I was originally annoyed about the numbers change, but it doesn't bother me anymore, my area won't be too much of a drastic change of numbers. I've become so careless trying to remember the ticket prices over the years I just can't be bothered caring about the changes anymore - mostly due to how often and annoying they've been these past few years.
As long as the new timetables (that better be printed) aren't as rubbish with the timings and connections of routes as they are now, I think I'll manage without raging too much - well apart from the Weston extension on the 70/71 and lack of a Woden bound Wanniassa bus closer to Kambah than the twice-as-far-to-walk-Wanniassa-P&R-vs-64-Vosper-street option...

Northside

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on October 16, 2018, 09:39:36 pm
it's a much quicker and quieter way to get to south Narrabundah than the 6.

This is the problem Action are trying to resolve. 2 routes servicing the same area - one route is barely used yet people get up in arms about losing a service when a high frequency service is just a stone's throw away. Having said that, there is a need to service the Sundown Motel and GA, so that's not a simple fix.

Quote
lack of a Woden bound Wanniassa bus closer to Kambah than the twice-as-far-to-walk-Wanniassa-P&R-vs-64-Vosper-street option...


Again, the couple of stops serviced by an infrequent 64 in Kambah that are all within walking distance to a much more frequent and fast service at the new P&R stop. It's obvious that people are using that service already over the 64, so why continue it?

Sylvan Loves Buses

Because not all of us are athletes ???

It is true that Symonston is underutilised, but what are the people who work in the Therapeutic Goods Administration Government office and visitors of the trailer park suppose to do if there's no service. My option is not severe, cause I'm only travelling to the German Harmonie Club which is 100m difference between the buses, but those people would have to travel (walk) up to 2.5km just to get a bus back home or there to work.
It's just like Hume, I don't know if Hume was serviced in the 90's cause my timetables don't go that far back, but from the timetables I do own, there was a significant gap where it wasn't serviced, although it would've been a really good idea that it was. Hume is an industrial suburb just like Mitchell and Fyshwick, although not as large, it should still have a service - at least once or twice each way a day. Like Gleneagles, the patronage is very small, but it should be considered due to the few patrons who do use it.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on October 17, 2018, 01:03:52 pm
Hume is an industrial suburb just like Mitchell and Fyshwick, although not as large, it should still have a service - at least once or twice each way a day. Like Gleneagles, the patronage is very small, but it should be considered due to the few patrons who do use it.

Patronage is low. Hence having a full day service is not viable, especially as it is out of the way. That does not mean having one or 2 services a day will work either, as in that case, chances are either the bus there or back at least, if not both, will not be when the majority of users would need it, hence they wouldn't catch the bus anyway (carpool, get a lift, uber, taxi), which would cut the low patronage even further making it even less viable. If they cut it, it will be inconvenient for some people but a small unheard minority. Ultimately, it is not a taxi service. Buses cost a lot to operate and need patronage to make it viable. Perhaps there is room for a private company using smaller more economical vehicles to fill in that gap. The Symonston motel could offer a shuttle service from the nearest 6 stop, as could TGA.


Sylvan Loves Buses

From how much money TC wasted on dead-runs due to poorly constructed shifts these past few years I'm sure a few extra unnecessary-for-everyone routes really wouldn't hurt that much.

Toyota Camry

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on October 17, 2018, 08:36:23 pm
From how much money TC wasted on dead-runs due to poorly constructed shifts these past few years I'm sure a few extra unnecessary-for-everyone routes really wouldn't hurt that much.

I have noticed some patterns in empty bus running; in one recent trip on the Tuggeranong Parkway, I passed around six buses heading north between the Glenloch Interchange and Kambah, this was around 2:45pm. These buses must be en-route between Tuggeranong Depot and the north side.

I am not sure what the longest dead run that currently occurs is; I am aware of empty runs between Fraser West and Tuggeranong Depot, which is a significant distance.

It could reduce dead running if driver changeovers were to occur en-route; for example, another run that occurs is that a blue rapid service will arrive at Lanyon Marketplace, then return empty to Tuggeranong Depot, whilst another bus will travel empty to Lanyon Marketplace at the same time and form a northbound blue rapid. Dead running could be reduced if drivers swapped on the in service bus at Tuggeranong Depot; this would also reduce expenditure on diesel fuel and fleet maintenance.

Northside

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on October 17, 2018, 08:36:23 pm
From how much money TC wasted on dead-runs due to poorly constructed shifts these past few years I'm sure a few extra unnecessary-for-everyone routes really wouldn't hurt that much.

I've lived in a few cities and have never seen any other city with so much dead running. In any other city (especially where buses are privatised), this simply doesn't happen. There would be no way in hell that a Fraser West run would return to a Tuggeranong depot.

Hopefully this new network addresses this. However, it would be more flexible if the rapid routes were less rigid - ie any run terminating in the city can simply run as an extra run on part of a rapid route to either Tuggers, Woden or Belco at little cost.

I'm also surprised they haven't seriously looked into opening a depot (even if just a very basic one) in Mitchell to avoid all the dead running between Gungahlin and Belco.

Busnerd

You'd be surprised about some of the dead running that exists for whatever reason, it is not exclusive to ACTION and happens in a number of private and government bus companies, not only limited to buses but trains as well.

Bus 400

A Mitchell Depot is actually in the pipeline, but nothing is likely to happen until Woden Depot reopens.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk


Snorzac

Dead running is unavoidable, it's a question of whether you want a bus to sit at Fraser for 28 minutes (as an example) or whether you want the bus to run empty to kippax and start a run within 15minutes. Sure you burn the fuel but at the end of the day it's probably cheaper given driver wages to run it empty rather than having your resource stationary for an extended period.

In an ideal world there would be minimal dead running but with driver meal and crib breaks it makes dead running unavoidable, add that to time table constraints and you will find empty running is more than often the more efficient alternative to having a bus sitting around.


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Bus 400

A bit more info about the Demand Responsive Transport has been made public via a tender.
https://tenders.act.gov.au/ets/tender/display/tender-details.do?id=91949&action=display-tender-details

DRT will replace Flexibus, but also expand to AMC, greenfield areas (developing suburbs) & local hospitals.

It will be being run by the minibus crew & service will be free to begin with.

If the trial is successful, the service may be expanded & fees will be charged.

Bookings are looking to be made via modern ways of via an app, website or telephone.

The tender shows some mumbo jumbo about the new payment system. But if anyone who might understand mumbo jumbo might like to explain it in simple english.

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Northside

For those playing at home, here are my thoughts for Network 2019 improvements:

http://actbus.net/forum/index.php?topic=4401.0

All suggestions welcome. Hopefully some of the changes may be able to be adopted.

Barry Drive

March 14, 2019, 08:53:28 am #20 Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 10:58:00 am by Barry Drive
Maps and timetables now online.

https://www.transport.act.gov.au/getting-around/new-network/bus/regions

New routes will commence on Monday 29 April (not 27th as previously announced).

Buzz Killington

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on October 17, 2018, 01:03:52 pm
Because not all of us are athletes ???


So you're complaining about walking from Vosper or Livingston to the stops on Athllon, but use the 88 to get to Narrabundah?🤔

Sylvan Loves Buses

Yes, because due to the incline I have to already walk to Vosper that takes 10 minutes to walk for the 64, walking to the P&R stop is exactly double the distance and time to take walking there. My mum and I as well as many others will now have to deal with either a route that takes 10-15 minutes longer to get to Woden and back home, or walk 10 minutes longer to get a 15-20 minute shorter route. That's why I'm always saying (elsewhere, not on here) if they had built the stop on both sides in the exact same place closer to the underpass, had one close to Jenke park or/and reinstated the stop where there's a concrete slab for stops that likely used to service Drakeford Drive where the Kambah Terminus once was, I wouldn't be complaining as much.

As for the 80/88 to Narrahbundah, I don't get off at the Government building (although others do utilise this stop on ocassion and residents from the caravan park do too), I get off outside the Geoscience building which has since been moved about 100 meters closer to the Harmonie German Club of which I am going to Narrabundah for.
Compared to what is over a kilometre walk, this I can cope with, and esp the routes I prefer being the 80 and 88, they have a much higher chance of being a PR2 than the 6 does, which is why I like to ride them whenever possible, regardless of if the walk is 200m difference, it's worth the 3 minutes faster travel if I get a bus I like.


Lol Barry Drive, you can never win...

triumph

Perusing the new timetables, there is a subtle change at Belconnen:
The 'Belconnen Community Bus Station' becomes 'Belconnen Interchange'.

By the way, the terminal for local services 'Emu Bank Bus Station', and starting point 'Eastern Valley Way Bus Station' continue but unless to be much improved, do not warrant the title 'Bus Station'. The Emu Bank stop is just that, a blade on a pole. At least the Eastern Valley Way stop has a shelter. 

Busfanatic101

Certainly off-peak (evenings, weekends) seems to be improved but a significant downgrade for peak travel. Lucky me that I no longer have regular commutes and I'm no longer dependent on public transport for other travel...

triumph

Quote from: triumph on March 14, 2019, 11:43:35 pmThe Emu Bank stop is just that, a blade on a pole. At least the Eastern Valley Way stop has a shelter. 
The Emu Bank stop DOES have a shelter. Should not have relied on memory, sorry. But still, they are normal shelters with nothing special about the infrastructure to warrant the term 'Bus Station'.

Busfanatic101

From Google:


Quote from: undefinedbus station

noun

  • a place in a town where buses arrive and depart.



Why would it need to have 'special infrastructure' to be called a bus station? There are plenty of train stations which have little more than a platform and a sign.

They are using the term bus station to refer to the main transfer points for buses. What they might have called interchange in the past.

Busfanatic101

There is now reference to a service to AMC run by smaller buses under FAQ - details still to be announced. I wonder if this could extend to Hume maybe. Add in Hall, Oaks Estate, Uriarra Village and Gleneagles while they're at it lol...

Bus 503

It appears that many routes will have services beginning before 06:00 on a weekday, which is half an hour earlier than when the first service of many route operates at the moment.

I find the route 50 and route 51 crossover quite odd. If TC is aiming for more direct routes, then why does the route 51 not continue all the way up Brigalow Street, instead doing what the route 50 should do and going up Mackennal and Archibald?
The route 50 should continue all the way up Miller Street, which flows into Mackennal Street, avoiding the crossover with the route 51.



I also don't understand the logic of sending the route 56 down Constitution Avenue. The most direct route is for it to go over Commonwealth Avenue and not waste time going down Constitution Avenue, which is already well-serviced by the R3, R5 and the 182.

The stops on Langton Crescent will be reopened for use of the 57 and 58. These were closed after the old route 6 was abolished, and the large shelter and furniture with it.
On the subject of new bus stops, the route 31 will service the UC Hospital on Thirriwirri Street.
Also of note is that Narrabundah Terminus will reopen for terminating services of the route 56 in the evening.

Barry Drive

QuoteI find the route 50 and route 51 crossover quite odd. If TC is aiming for more direct routes, then why does the route 51 not continue all the way up Brigalow Street, instead doing what the route 50 should do and going up Mackennal and Archibald?
The route 50 should continue all the way up Miller Street, which flows into Mackennal Street, avoiding the crossover with the route 51.
This crossover is to ensure route 50 continues to service Lyneham Shops.

The Langton Cres stops have been moved from the old location. These stops have been used on occasion for shuttle services such as the Government House open day.

As Bus400 has reported via twitter, there has been a contract awarded to install and remove bus stop signs.


I assume the 731 blade signs counts the supplemental signs (such as School Service, City Loop) as well as the large signs (so isn't actually 731 closed stops) and timetable signs mostly refers to bollards.

King of Buses

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on March 29, 2019, 10:58:34 pmAdd in Hall, Oaks Estate, Uriarra Village and Gleneagles while they're at it lol...

Plus Tharwa.


Quote from: Bus 503 on March 30, 2019, 09:47:18 amI find the route 50 and route 51 crossover quite odd. If TC is aiming for more direct routes, then why does the route 51 not continue all the way up Brigalow Street, instead doing what the route 50 should do and going up Mackennal and Archibald?
The route 50 should continue all the way up Miller Street, which flows into Mackennal Street, avoiding the crossover with the route 51.

It's to service Lyneham Shops. I believe there was a bit of backlash in the consultation about that. The fact that it won't service the same stops there though is a bit of a problem. Only simple fix I guess would've been for the 50 to use Scrivener/Brigalow rather than Miller/Wattle, which would've reduced coverage a little bit (no worse than the current 936/937 though), but would've meant the Brigalow St stops just south of the Wattle St roundabout would've been a set of common stops.

Quote from: Bus 503 on March 30, 2019, 09:47:18 amI also don't understand the logic of sending the route 56 down Constitution Avenue. The most direct route is for it to go over Commonwealth Avenue and not waste time going down Constitution Avenue, which is already well-serviced by the R3, R5 and the 182.

Presumably to allow for a South Canberra - Russell/Reid link to (kinda) replace the 200, even though it does pretty much everything in the South Canberra region rather than being a direct service.

vnguyen

Google maps is now showing the new routes.



Bus 503

Something that seems quite odd is that two route 31s get to Cohen Street with a one minute gap between them: the 14:44 route 31 from the City gets to Cohen Street at 15:28, and the route 31 beginning at Kaleen Primary gets to Cohen Street at 15:29.

Couldn't TC have scheduled it so that the 14:44 service also serviced the Kaleen schools instead of having one bus for for the "school service" 31 and one for the "normal" 31?

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Bus 503 on April 13, 2019, 05:19:57 pmSomething that seems quite odd is that two route 31s get to Cohen Street with a one minute gap between them: the 14:44 route 31 from the City gets to Cohen Street at 15:28, and the route 31 beginning at Kaleen Primary gets to Cohen Street at 15:29.

Couldn't TC have scheduled it so that the 14:44 service also serviced the Kaleen schools instead of having one bus for for the "school service" 31 and one for the "normal" 31?
Perhaps demand is so great that one bus (or the allocated bus type) just wouldn't have cut it. Multiple well-patronised school buses to Belconnen may have been cut for example.

Busnerd

Sounds perfectly normal to me, quite often routes are timed 1-2 mins apart with one commencing at a school to pick up the extra load of students, I used to catch a 313 in the morning 10 years ago which had a 08:03 and 08:06 departure, one was a short working and one was the normal trip, one was also completely full most mornings and the other only half full.

triumph

New timetable books are now available. Try Info at City and Libraries.

Bus 503

Quote from: King of Buses on March 30, 2019, 11:32:24 amIt's to service Lyneham Shops. I believe there was a bit of backlash in the consultation about that. The fact that it won't service the same stops there though is a bit of a problem. Only simple fix I guess would've been for the 50 to use Scrivener/Brigalow rather than Miller/Wattle, which would've reduced coverage a little bit (no worse than the current 936/937 though), but would've meant the Brigalow St stops just south of the Wattle St roundabout would've been a set of common stops.


Thanks for the response, King of Buses. I wasn't aware of the backlash.
I still think that the route 50 should not divert via the Lyneham Shops. It is an 800 m walk from stop 3118 to Lyneham Shops, which is not far at all. I think it is better to have a streamlined service that uses the most logical routing than have an unnecessary diversion.

Toyota Camry

It may be worth considering the operation of a separate shuttle route number 52, to provide a shuttle between Stop 3118 and Lyneham Shops; this would be an ideal run for the Dennis Dart vehicles that are about to be withdrawn. I am proposing that one bus could operate this service at a 30 minute daytime frequency; during peak hours it could operate every 20 minutes.

At night and on weekends, it may be more worthwhile to operate the route using full size buses operating special to & from Dickson Interchange; this would reduce excessive layover times on a 60 minute frequency.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 21, 2019, 09:26:25 amIt may be worth considering the operation of a separate shuttle route number 52, to provide a shuttle between Stop 3118 and Lyneham Shops; this would be an ideal run for the Dennis Dart vehicles that are about to be withdrawn. I am proposing that one bus could operate this service at a 30 minute daytime frequency; during peak hours it could operate every 20 minutes.

At night and on weekends, it may be more worthwhile to operate the route using full size buses operating special to & from Dickson Interchange; this would reduce excessive layover times on a 60 minute frequency.
Are you serious?? Deploy another bus and pay another driver to drive a few hundred metres twice an hour? And that would be a better deal than the current cross over which might add 30 seconds to each trip? Also why would you add a shuttle bus to Dickson when there are already 2 buses from that location to Dickson? Not to mention the extra costs of maintaining an additional bus type for a 800m shuttle.
These are rhetorical questions for you to think about, I'm not interested in the answer.

Toyota Camry

April 21, 2019, 12:11:55 pm #39 Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 02:42:00 pm by Barry Drive
Quote from: Busfanatic101 on April 21, 2019, 10:32:55 amAre you serious?? Deploy another bus and pay another driver to drive a few hundred metres twice an hour?
This would create an equivalent of four new FTE (full time equivalent) positions for bus operators; it is the role of government to improve the economy and create jobs, something the Barr Government has been excellent at achieving.

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on April 21, 2019, 10:32:55 amAnd that would be a better deal than the current cross over which might add 30 seconds to each trip?
Peak traffic in that area would add far more for the deviation; in the spirit of the 7 day network, it is easier to continue operating this shuttle at all times.

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on April 21, 2019, 10:32:55 amAlso why would you add a shuttle bus to Dickson when there are already 2 buses from that location to Dickson?
I believe that you have misunderstood my comment; on a weekend with only a 60 minute frequency on the Lyneham Shops to Stop 3118 route, it would be uneconomical to have a bus out there just for that shuttle, this is why I am proposing that at those times, buses that have finished other runs at Dickson Interchange would operate "not in service" to and from Lyneham Shops to operate trips on this route.

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on April 21, 2019, 10:32:55 amNot to mention the extra costs of maintaining an additional bus type for a 800m shuttle.
This is a question best asked to the maintenance team at Belconnen; if it is not economical to maintain Dennis Darts for this route, it would be most appropriate to utilise Irisbus Agoraline low floors on the service.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 21, 2019, 12:11:55 pmThis would create an equivalent of four new FTE (full time equivalent) positions for bus operators; it is the role of government to improve the economy and create jobs, something the Barr Government has been excellent at achieving.
If the government has the budget to run additional bus drivers and buses, there are an infinite number of unserviced or insufficiently serviced locations where the extra buses would be much more beneficial than a 800m shuttle in Lyneham to replace a route crossover.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Oi, Lyneham is getting much more convenience as it is than Kambah to Woden. We're losing the 64, and having to ride both the 60/62 now 70/71 for an additional 15 more than ever, think Lyneham lucky they're getting what they've got at the cost of some strange route crossovers.

Bus 503

Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 21, 2019, 09:26:25 amIt may be worth considering the operation of a separate shuttle route number 52, to provide a shuttle between Stop 3118 and Lyneham Shops; this would be an ideal run for the Dennis Dart vehicles that are about to be withdrawn. I am proposing that one bus could operate this service at a 30 minute daytime frequency; during peak hours it could operate every 20 minutes.

At night and on weekends, it may be more worthwhile to operate the route using full size buses operating special to & from Dickson Interchange; this would reduce excessive layover times on a 60 minute frequency.

This goes back to the question of whether there is enough demand for the route 50 to deviate via Lyneham Shops at all. Are lots of people getting on at Miller Street to go to Lyneham Shops? Enough to warrant the crossover?

Regarding your suggestion of adding a shuttle bus between stop 3118 and Lyneham Shops, it seems like a waste of resources. I don't think that there is enough demand for the route 50 crossover, but I am pretty sure that there's not enough demand for a shuttle bus. The crossover is not the best option, but a shuttle bus is worse, simply because it wastes even more resources where there is no demand.

If the demand exists, then the crossover may be worth it. But it is not sensible to waste resources on a shuttle bus when I don't think the demand is even there to warrant the crossover.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on April 21, 2019, 10:32:55 amAre you serious??
I think the answer to that is: no. And the follow up answers prove it.

Please move on. There have to be more important concerns.

Sylvan Loves Buses

As one era ends, a new one begins. Time for the most physically painful network of them, for me at least.

Bus 503

When will new timetables be put at bus stops? All the old timetables were removed around two weeks ago, but they were not replaced by the new timetables.
Is TC not planning on printing timetables for the slots at bus stops?

Barry Drive

Given that blades were removed from stops that won't be in use, since the timetable cases are still there, I assume the plan will be to insert the timetables from next week.

vnguyen

I was just looking up on Google maps and the weekend timetables are no longer available but shows up as the new network operating.

Doesn't the new network starts on Monday?

Busnerd

It starts on Monday, yes. Perhaps someone got the date wrong and uploaded/changed over the data too early, Barry Drive is an expert with that stuff.

Barry Drive

As mentioned above, the commencement date was going to be 27 April, but was later changed to be the 29th.

The first GTFS released had the weekend changes starting 27 April.

Also, new timetables have begun to appear at suburban stops.

Busfanatic101

I've seen people waiting at stops today not serviced on weekends in the current network. With some tracking applications unusable and Google maps ahead, it's clearly throwing off a portion of the population.

Busnerd

Not sure how it is confusing people, the new timetables start tomorrow, today is the same as it has been for the last few years, it is clearly a sunday and therefore would run the existing sunday network.

Busfanatic101

Yes but people who depend on google maps would think the new timetable has already started.

Busnerd

I would say most people using the buses on weekends would be regular commuters anyway and would know what timetable is running, I rarely see many tourists who bother to use the bus network besides the occasional 81 trip, most either walk or get a hire car as most of the attractions are too far apart to easily get to by public transport.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Barry Drive on April 28, 2019, 11:53:11 amAlso, new timetables have begun to appear at suburban stops.

Of all the days to forget my Network '17 Weekend book to travel on the last 961 from Mawson only for it to come 8 minutes late without me knowing, this was not a good one.

Toyota Camry

Social media is painting a picture of an absolute disaster on the buses this morning; it will be interesting to see if the new network remains after this week, or if an emergency reversion to the old network takes place.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 29, 2019, 11:39:58 amSocial media is painting a picture of an absolute disaster on the buses this morning; it will be interesting to see if the new network remains after this week, or if an emergency reversion to the old network takes place
Complaints about this network are nothing new. An 'emergency revert' would just cause more confusion. As far as I could see  most services ran to plan and to schedule this morning. There is absolutely no reason they would back down now after all they've done.

Busnerd

I had no issues this morning other than forgetting what stop the R6 went from, thought it left from the 'new' stop on Alinga but it actually went from Platform 3, I also later realised the stop on Alinga just before Marcus Clarke that I thought was closed is now in use again, besides that I had no issues getting around.

Did speak to one driver of the 22 who claimed she had gotten lost (presumably on the school run she had just finished) and was having a bit of a laugh, I told her not to worry and that everyone is probably lost today, People will settle into their new routines in a week or two, those who absolutely hate the new network, if they really hate it will not use it, everyone else will adapt with some grumbling then get over it as the way it is.

I agree with Busfanatic101, I highly doubt they will revert the network because some people couldn't figure out how to use the new network.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well then, apart from the craze of the strange number of emergency vehicles out this evening I think I'm actually not minding the network so far. It's going to take a little getting use to Wannissa routes in Weston, but I think it'll be alright.

I felt that way until I got to Cooleman Court and noticed the screen said it was an Interchange and there was a 70 waiting for us so we could follow it to Woden after having to wait for an additional 3 minutes somehow even though the bus arrived at Namadgi 6 minutes late...
After looking at the timetable I decided to bring with me just-in-case I noticed something I didn't examine earlier (cause I couldn't yet care), the same idiot/s have written up the time sheets. If there's going to be anything more annoying about this network other than... this network, it's going to be the fact that through the peak periods, there's going to be many routes that go the same way sniffing-diesel-where-the-sun-don't-shine each other till they split. I'm sure the drivers have been told to watch out and not do what every driver has always done and drive past cause another bus is already sitting at a bus stop cause it is blue rapid and it's not and doesn't care to slow and look just in case for the first few days, I'm sure they'll get back into that routine in no time.

We thought it was bad enough that there was so much wastage with dead-runs in the past few networks, well say hello to Network '19!!!

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on April 22, 2019, 06:44:21 am
Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 21, 2019, 10:03:54 pmthis leaves the Renault PR100.3s in particular extremely likely to disappear after next Friday.
I seriously doubt this will be the case during peak, there's a lot of rapids more now than ever, I'm sure there's going to be a few if not most Renault's out. Still, I've been wrong before, we'll just have to wait and see.
I was not wrong, I spotted a 3 on the way to Woden, and every single 71 and 6 passing the opposite way I was travelling on the exact same routes between 5:30 and 6:30 this evening were 2's.

Thinking back to my disgust as I was looking through the timetable book imagining one of those smashing-face-through-table gif memes on rapid repeat, I did see something that pleased me - they've f***ing finally stopped using 'station' as the Interchange names.

To finish off, I saw quite a few R5's as steer-tags, and here was me thinking
Quote from: Sylvan...and I thought steer-tags were not allowed on Langdon Avenue..."

triumph

Ventured out on the new network this afternoon.

Didn't take long. At first point where R3 diverges in Spence from the old 15/315, the driver's 'autopilot' cut in and we turned right into Alpen St instead of left. Easy escape by rejoining correct route via minor street Clifford Cresc. This was the only hiccup experienced.

But in the City, the Interactive Panel outside Maccas showed 56,57, and 58 incorrectly departing from Platform 1. Oh dear, how could they so badly misdirect patrons? Platform 1 is now far away on the other side of Northbourne Ave in Alinga St. Actual departure platform is now 10 (significantly, formerly no.1) at Bailey's Corner. It would be better to switch the display right off than show such serious misinformation. It seems likely to me that this was happening all day and implies that numerous staff on hand didn't see any need to regularly verify the displays' accuracy. Very poor PR and reflection on IT Transport Canberra's IT experts.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Toyota Camry on April 29, 2019, 11:39:58 amSocial media is painting a picture of an absolute disaster on the buses this morning; it will be interesting to see if the new network remains after this week, or if an emergency reversion to the old network takes place.
There is no ability to do a "reversion". And what would happen to all those new services in Gungahlin and Molonglo?

Where there is room to move is the light rail. While the current operating frequency is based on the original contract, with some negotiations (and obviously more money to Canberra Metro) the tram frequency could be increased after 6pm and also weekends without too much trouble. To alter the bus timetables or frequency would be much more complex.

About the only thing which could be done in the short term is to move some bus stopping locations in the interchanges.

In this Canberra Times article, Minister Fitzharris denies there's any problems, says there is capacity to add extra services, but rules out any "tweaks" until the end of the year. She also "played down concerns" that there would be insufficient drivers to cover weekend work.

So there's that.

Northside

From what I can read between the lines, most complaints are because people are new to the numbers and locations of new services, so they are spending more time than usual making connections. Once they work out where to go, that will speed up.

I also note that Google maps adds way too much time in between connections, which paints a false picture of the new duration. For example, Dickson to Woden interchanges takes 7 mins on the tram and 17 mins on the bus with an interchange of 120m and one set of lights. Yet Google tells me the trip will take 37 mins in peak. So it's added 12 minutes of wait time - 50% of the journey! Given each route has frequencies of max 6 mins wait, a passenger will see 2-3 services depart in that wait time!

Kippax to Woden apparently takes 63 mins, but only 55 mins on the 2 buses and a connection at the same platform in Belco! Again, 12 mins will see a lot of R4s pass you in that time!

I assume Google is trying to factor in late running, but you're not comparing apples with apples. Give us the actual times and people can add in what they think is a reasonable time to make a connection.

Snorzac

I did notice that this a similar issue when using the TC Trip planner to plan my trip. The R3 I was meant to connect to was meant to arrive at the airport at 0910 or something similar, I got an R2 about 20min later than planned as I was a bit slow getting out of bed and was still at the airport by 0910. 

The journey planner also recommends changing on London Cct which involves walking between two stops, thankfully I know better but so someone who isn't familiar with the stop layout or with Canberra, this can over complicate things. Coming from Kippax on the R2 needing to transfer to an airport bound R3 it makes a lot more sense to transfer before the City Interchange where the buses share the same stops. Westfield Station is my preference but Rimmer Street as per googles suggestion makes a lot more sense.

triumph

Saw a 'Bruce Shuttle' service in Belconnen. Found it in TC web site.
There is a weekdays only shuttle to Bruce, UIC, and Calvary. Essentially a replacement for part of old route 3. The route is not numbered and the route number is replaced by 'Shuttle' in the destination. About a 40min interval during the day only.

There is a similar AMC Shuttle between Woden, the Canberra Hospital and the AMC. It also operates only during the day at roughly 1 1/2hr intervals, and only Wed - Sun (same schedule each day).

Toyota Camry

It appears that buses longer than 12 metres are banned from the R3; despite heavy steer tag and articulated utilisation on the R4, and heavy articulated utilisation on the R2, it does not appear that a single sighting has been made of any non-standard buses on the R3. I am unsure as to which part of the route is the issue, but suspect it is the eastern section; former route 315 was serviced regularly by articulated and steer tag vehicles.

Snorzac

I spotted 510 on an R3 yesterday afternoon.

Busnerd

Quote from: Toyota Camry on May 03, 2019, 11:22:12 amIt appears that buses longer than 12 metres are banned from the R3; despite heavy steer tag and articulated utilisation on the R4, and heavy articulated utilisation on the R2, it does not appear that a single sighting has been made of any non-standard buses on the R3. I am unsure as to which part of the route is the issue, but suspect it is the eastern section; former route 315 was serviced regularly by articulated and steer tag vehicles.
So they're using only darts on the route then? As most modern rigid buses are all longer than 12m...perhaps research before making wild claims.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on May 03, 2019, 11:22:12 amIt appears that buses longer than 12 metres are banned from the R3; despite heavy steer tag and articulated utilisation on the R4, and heavy articulated utilisation on the R2, it does not appear that a single sighting has been made of any non-standard buses on the R3. I am unsure as to which part of the route is the issue, but suspect it is the eastern section; former route 315 was serviced regularly by articulated and steer tag vehicles.
Did you consider that perhaps there isn't the capacity demands to warrant using STAGs and artics? The busy section between Belco and civic overlap with R2/R4 anyway (which you state use larger buses), and the remainder is nothing more than a suburban service in belco and the old 11 which I only ever saw using standard buses. It does not do Tuggers-Civic by itself like the R4, nor does it handle lots of transfers of people wanting to go to Woden from local services in Calwell/Erindale like the R5.

triumph

Quote from: triumph on April 30, 2019, 12:08:06 amBut in the City, the Interactive Panel outside Maccas showed 56,57, and 58 incorrectly departing from Platform 1. Oh dear, how could they so badly misdirect patrons? Platform 1 is now far away on the other side of Northbourne Ave in Alinga St. Actual departure platform is now 10 (significantly, formerly no.1) at Bailey's Corner. It would be better to switch the display right off than show such serious misinformation. It seems likely to me that this was happening all day and implies that numerous staff on hand didn't see any need to regularly verify the displays' accuracy. Very poor PR and reflection on IT Transport Canberra's IT experts.

Disgusted to observe today (3rd) that nothing has changed. I was advised that it had been noticed and TC had been notified. But obviously no effective action yet. To guide an elderly person (for example) all the way to Plat 1 and then they needing to go back to Plat 10, miss the service and wait for the next, is very unkind to say the least, and some would say it verges on 'elder abuse'.

Busnerd

I don't think that in any way would be 'elder abuse' in fact, most elderly people either wouldn't be able to read the small orange text, and most probably wouldn't even notice it considering they're mounted fairly high, as a regular PT user myself I often notice half the information on the nxt bus screens is wrong or inconsistent anyway so I usually don't use them.

triumph

Quote from: Busnerd on May 05, 2019, 09:48:12 amI don't think that in any way would be 'elder abuse' in fact, most elderly people either wouldn't be able to read the small orange text, and most probably wouldn't even notice it considering they're mounted fairly high, as a regular PT user myself I often notice half the information on the nxt bus screens is wrong or inconsistent anyway so I usually don't use them.
Not quite sure how to respond to your assumptions on senior citizens. What do you think of as 'elder'? Only those in medium/high care nursing facilities occasionally venturing into town by bus? Age affects in many different ways, but many 'elderly' people (some in their late 90s and even over 100) retain and use driving licences with appropriate visual acuity requirements (enforced by regularly required medicals), but some of these folk, when not driving, would struggle to walk additional distances to Plat 1 and then back to Plat 10 City Interchange, due (say) to hip and knee issues. They plan bus journeys carefully to limit walking to their capacity (which can vary quite a lot, day to day and even during the day). Many 'elderly' pride themselves on independence and might very well refer to the panels (I know one who regularly does so).

May I politely suggest you give some thought to what appear to be your preconceived notions of what an 'elderly' person is like.

Thank you for your comments on your use of the panels, effectively they support my view that the panels should be turned off if seriously inaccurate. 

Busfanatic101

Quote from: triumph on May 07, 2019, 12:19:37 amNot quite sure how to respond to your assumptions on senior citizens. What do you think of as 'elder'? Only those in medium/high care nursing facilities occasionally venturing into town by bus? Age affects in many different ways, but many 'elderly' people (some in their late 90s and even over 100) retain and use driving licences with appropriate visual acuity requirements (enforced by regularly required medicals), but some of these folk, when not driving, would struggle to walk additional distances to Plat 1 and then back to Plat 10 City Interchange, due (say) to hip and knee issues. They plan bus journeys carefully to limit walking to their capacity (which can vary quite a lot, day to day and even during the day). Many 'elderly' pride themselves on independence and might very well refer to the panels (I know one who regularly does so).

May I politely suggest you give some thought to what appear to be your preconceived notions of what an 'elderly' person is like.

Thank you for your comments on your use of the panels, effectively they support my view that the panels should be turned off if seriously inaccurate. 
The point is it does not target anyone, it would confuse everyone equally. So it is not elder abuse just as it is not child abuse, bus spotter abuse, middle-aged commuter abuse, or [insert anything here] abuse.

Busnerd

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on May 07, 2019, 12:23:16 pmThe point is it does not target anyone, it would confuse everyone equally. So it is not elder abuse just as it is not child abuse, bus spotter abuse, middle-aged commuter abuse, or [insert anything here] abuse.
Yep, perhaps I could have gone without the long winded excuse but it is still not 'elder abuse' nor is my dictionary definition of what an 'elder' is, up for extensive discussion.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on May 07, 2019, 12:23:16 pm[insert anything here] abuse.

How about Canberra's large population of 'less-able' (disabled) patrons?

triumph

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 08, 2019, 05:58:08 amHow about Canberra's large population of 'less-able' (disabled) patrons?
The, to me, obvious catch-all choice is 'customer'.

Quote from: triumph on May 04, 2019, 01:13:10 am...., is very unkind to say the least, and some would say it verges on 'elder abuse'.
Note I didn't claim it to be unarguably 'abuse'. By-the-way 'abuse' does not have to be 'targeted' or 'malicious', it can arise from such aspects as carelessness, lack of consideration, etc.

However, much as it is interesting to debate, perhaps the topic is drifting from Forum purposes, and from the original point that TC had ample opportunity to have the panels showing correct information. But if they can't for whatever reason, rather than mislead, TC should turn them off.


triumph

Back to the original point. Today the panel outside Maccas in the City Interchange is STILL advising departures of 56, 57, 58 as from platform 1.

TC is being very foolish in not correcting this. Just imagine if a transferring child took guidance from the panel, got confused as a result, caught the wrong bus, had to be collected or return from some point remote from destination, and the media got hold of it. In the present climate it would make headlines and acutely embarass their Minister.


triumph

That panel outside Maccas at the City Interchange is continuing to display Platform 1 incorrectly for Platform 10. Further comment would involve severely intemperate words ...................

(One thing seems probable from this saga - TC does not monitor this Forum.)

Sylvan Loves Buses

There's two things also lacking for the new platform two.

No ****ing seats
Quote from: triumph'elder abuse'
yup, and there's quite a lot of them there now I'm noticing,
and no next bus panel, which is rather inconvenient esp as the stop before has one.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: triumph on May 17, 2019, 12:18:04 amThat panel outside Maccas at the City Interchange is continuing to display Platform 1 incorrectly for Platform 10. Further comment would involve severely intemperate words ...................

(One thing seems probable from this saga - TC does not monitor this Forum.)
Why don't you update us when there is a change, rather than when there isn't. Also, you should send them the feedback via the formal channels (ie. Access Canberra) if it bothers you so much. 
I don't hear you complaining about 'child abuse' regarding the fact only 3.2 digits of school bus routes fit within the screen. Do I detect some bias here? Get over it.

triumph

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on May 17, 2019, 11:27:59 amWhy don't you update us when there is a change, rather than when there isn't. Also, you should send them the feedback via the formal channels (ie. Access Canberra) if it bothers you so much.
I don't hear you complaining about 'child abuse' regarding the fact only 3.2 digits of school bus routes fit within the screen. Do I detect some bias here? Get over it.

Thank you for your suggestion to send feedback. Not necessary though, as I have already noted, it has been reported to TC some time back.


Interesting remark concerning school buses. I have never seen a school bus service on a panel. I can't be biased if I didn't know. Perhaps have not been in the right place at the right time. Your comment however, reinforces that the situation is broader and thus more unsatisfactory.

To me it is important for the success and acceptance of public transport (and the wider benefits resulting), that organisations delivering it do it professionally. It concerns me when things like incorrect advice on the panels, so easily avoided or corrected, are not fixed in a timely manner. It becomes annoying. In business it is very well known that a bad customer experience can do vastly more harm to the reputation of the business than quite a number of good experiences.

You (and Busnerd) seem to think that misleading TC customers, thereby potentially damaging the reputation further of public transport, is not an issue of any significance, and simply doesn't matter. Perhaps with the special knowledge and familiarity (and sometimes narrow focus) that enthusiasm can bring, that is quite plausible and understandable.

To my mind, one of the functions of the Forum is a platform where both the broad aspects and the minutiae of specialist interest and views can be reported and/or aired. I am sorry I bored you with an apparently different point of view. But I don't apologise for posting progress or non-progress (when there should have been).

With any luck, next time I am in the City, I will find the Platform 1/10 problem will have been fixed. Perhaps the school bus issue at the same time.
 

     

Busfanatic101

I'm not saying they shouldn't fix it, I just feel like you're making a very big deal of it. Anyhow, the time spent reminding this forum of the issue would be better spent reminding TC by submitting more feedback forms :) 
The school bus display was in Woden, and now that I think about it, it was 9:50am so I don't know why it was showing on the screen.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I saw that on the display at Woden a few days ago too, I actually laughed as to how ridiculous it was to look at, 204 and what looked to be another 4. I was assuming it was probably the 508 replacement, as that was one of the very few that use to drop off at Woden before travelling on.
Here's the thing though, I'm still not getting why they changed the school runs from 3 to 4 digit numbers, cause of the new network the highest number has been made the 182, this should mean they have about 800 other numbers to choose from, why would they go to 4 digits esp as the Renault's only just fit the number on the side desto and the gas MAN make the number so tiny you can barely see it from a distance (on the side and rear)?

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 18, 2019, 02:13:28 pmHere's the thing though, I'm still not getting why they changed the school runs from 3 to 4 digit numbers, cause of the new network the highest number has been made the 182, this should mean they have about 800 other numbers to choose from, why would they go to 4 digits esp as the Renault's only just fit the number on the side desto and the gas MAN make the number so tiny you can barely see it from a distance (on the side and rear)?

Don't they actually display the destination though instead of just saying school bus now? If so, the 4 digits will distinguish school runs and reduce confusion. Or am I imagining things?

Sylvan Loves Buses

Nupp, they still say school bus, and the overhead display at Woden says it too.

Buzz Killington

The four digit route numbers are ridiculous.

Snorzac

Quote from: Buzz Killington on May 19, 2019, 12:52:05 pmThe four digit route numbers are ridiculous.

Given there is no more three digit numbers (aside from the Lanyon express services), I really didn't see the need for four digit school bus numbers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bus 503

Just some things I've noticed about the new network:

Many school runs are allocated non-wheelchair accessible buses. (Whether that actually eventuates is another matter - some trips are often upgraded to wheelchair accessible buses.)

I'm noticing a lot more general lateness in the network. If you look at recent departures on Nextthere, you'll see that almost all services begin late. Whether it's one minute or seven minutes late, these services are all late. Starting a trip exactly on time is not hard. The light rail always departs on time from its departure point, and it almost always runs on time throughout the whole trip. The light rail has proven that departing on time is possible, and I believe that a starting point for ACTION in encouraging people to catch their services is to ensure that their services depart exactly on time to begin with.

Rapid services (at least the red rapid) used to have limited stops to improve the "rapidness" of the journey. I think it would be good if this were reimplemented. For example, fewer stops for Rapid services down Constitution Avenue would help to speed up the journey. When I caught the Rapid 5 yesterday, the moderately full ARTIC was regularly stopping to let one or two people off; the majority were affected for a few people's convenience. This really isn't how a rapid service should operate.

Regarding timings of bus services, some timings are widly wrong. 9 minutes is allocated for the Rapid 5 to go from the City Bus Station to "City West" (stop 3042) in the evening peak.
Also, there is never enough time allocated for routes to get from the City Bus Station to the Canberra Centre. Buses have always ran late between the two points in previous networks, and I would have thought TC would learn and allocate more time to get to the Canberra Centre, and yet they haven't learnt or realised that this is a problem.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Bus 503 on May 25, 2019, 05:22:23 pmI'm noticing a lot more general lateness in the network. If you look at recent departures on Nextthere, you'll see that almost all services begin late. Whether it's one minute or seven minutes late, these services are all late. Starting a trip exactly on time is not hard. The light rail always departs on time from its departure point, and it almost always runs on time throughout the whole trip. The light rail has proven that departing on time is possible, and I believe that a starting point for ACTION in encouraging people to catch their services is to ensure that their services depart exactly on time to begin with.
Drivers will leave late if routes have too much time. Off the top of my head, I think the extra time on 74/75 is 7-11 minutes. There has been a lot of early running in Tuggeranong (except perhaps the 72/73). Take a look at anytrip in peak hour next week. A good way to see the proportion of early and late running in each area at a glance. PM School buses 200# that use Mugga Ln are often 13min early by the time they come through Fadden. Departing late is better than stopping for a total of 10 minutes at random stops waiting for time to catch up to you...

Toyota Camry

I have been told by a colleague living in Spence that during the day, R3 buses commonly leave the Bottlemart on Copland Drive up to 8 minutes late; yet are running to schedule on arrival at Westfield Belconnen.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Yeah, many routes have been given way too much time to complete runs. Just going through Cooleman the other day, and a few other occasions I've been though, there's been buses just sitting there cause they end up getting there too early before moving on back to Woden.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: King of Buses on May 30, 2019, 10:25:41 pm304 (R5) - Unusual to see an Iris doing a run to the deep south in this new network.

Certainly is. I've even seen a few P2/3s on R4/5's the past few days too, even though I've been unable to ride them myself :(. For now though I just have to deal with the never-seen-before-ridiculous number of artics and stags in quick succession in my logbook until next semester when hopefully my hours are a little different and I'm able to find some perfect matches. The more Euro 6 Scania's I can avoid, the happier I'll be.

triumph

Happened to be at Fraser West terminus early today. What a schemozzle. A probably unanticipated consequence of the new network is that the terminal can't cope with the number of buses there at the same time.

I saw buses being driven over the kerb to the right onto the nature strip to park/layover opposite the terminal shelter, the terminal road being already full. Further, there was evidence that buses from the S approach are regularly diverting left over the kerb onto parkland to create a de facto extension of the terminal road.

Are there other shared outer terminals with this issue?   

Sylvan Loves Buses

Yup, City west during the middle of the day, and evening peak.

Barry Drive



Quote from: triumph on May 18, 2019, 12:02:51 amWith any luck, next time I am in the City, I will find the Platform 1/10 problem will have been fixed. Perhaps the school bus issue at the same time.   

Check it today. Can't say about school bus displays though.

As for terminuses, Chapman/Duffy has gone from 1 route to 3 - this may pose problems.

triumph

Minor item. TC seems to have reviewed and updated/improved some stop descriptions shown on the panel in the buses. Kudos to TC for doing this.
For example, under the old network (15/315) there were two successive 'Spence Shops' one in Kingsford Smith Dr. and the other in Clarey Cresc.. Under the new network (R3) the second has become 'Clarey/Clark'. I have noticed other similar changes.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: triumph on June 06, 2019, 11:34:37 pmMinor item. TC seems to have reviewed and updated/improved some stop descriptions shown on the panel in the buses. Kudos to TC for doing this.
For example, under the old network (15/315) there were two successive 'Spence Shops' one in Kingsford Smith Dr. and the other in Clarey Cresc.. Under the new network (R3) the second has become 'Clarey/Clark'. I have noticed other similar changes.
I'm impressed. The best they managed with my previous complaints a few years back was to change one audio to Sternberg and Comrie while the display still showed 2x Erindale Centre.
It was probably done with the old 65 in mind that went on Sternberg only but got people confused with the new network when 66/67 serviced both stops.

Bus 503

Is the R9 being well-patronised? Rarely do I see many people on it when it comes through Dickson from Watson in the evening peak. Perhaps it may be better for the R9 to only run between Dickson and Belconnen, unless there is real demand from Watson.

I'd also be interested in whether anyone knows what routes the STAGs operate on at the moment? So far, I know of STAGs running on R2s, R4s, R5s, and R9s.

Other observations are that the utilisation of the ARTICs is not 100% rapid routes. I know of route 53, 31, 32 and 56 trips that are serviced by ARTICs.

Sylvan Loves Buses

A few evening 72-80's are operated by artics and stags, probably as they were serviced by R4/5s. R6's are serviced by a couple of Stags and Renaults every day.
As for Watson, I do remember the few times going up there that the 39 was pretty full most occasions, I guess that's why it was every 10 or something absurd minutes during evening peak back on the previous networks. As for now with the R9, I'm not sure, haven't been north of the City much yet.

Toyota Camry

June 22, 2019, 04:06:18 pm #98 Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 01:04:23 pm by Barry Drive
In the afternoon peak hour, the peak direction of travel is from Dickson to Watson, not Watson to Dickson; therefore it is not likely that the service will be busy departing from Watson during that period of the day. I am hearing from some of my colleagues that they are utilising route 50 for a direct trip from Watson without the need to switch to light rail at Dickson Interchange; this may be cannibalising the R9's patronage, however there is a busy section of route serviced exclusively by the R9 and not the 50, this is the high density housing area along Aspinall Street between Watson Shops and Watson Terminus.

triumph

Quote from: Bus 503 on June 21, 2019, 07:17:35 pmI'd also be interested in whether anyone knows what routes the STAGs operate on at the moment? So far, I know of STAGs running on R2s, R4s, R5s, and R9s.
First STAG I have seen on R3 I rode today after lunch from City towards Spence.

triumph

Quote from: Bus 503 on June 21, 2019, 07:17:35 pmIs the R9 being well-patronised? Rarely do I see many people on it when it comes through Dickson from Watson in the evening peak. Perhaps it may be better for the R9 to only run between Dickson and Belconnen, unless there is real demand from Watson. 

This raises the question of the validity of R9 being described as Rapid.
As an example, comparing the R9 and rte 31 departing Cohen St Interchange at 3.17pm and 3.06pm respectively, the R9 is scheduled to take 29min to the Dickson Interchange, and the rte 31 just one minute longer! A negligible difference. If rte 31 is not Rapid then logically, nor is R9. It would be better labelled as route, say, 33. Or replace the 'R' with 'F' for frequent.

A similar situation exists with R6. We made the mistake of using the R6 between Woden and the National Gallery thinking the direct Rapid would be quick! In fact, the next R4 to Regatta Point stop and then double back on R2/R6 would have been much quicker.
Comparing services around 3pm between Woden and City Interchanges,
R4 17min
R5 34min
Rte58 40min
Rte57 48min
R6 50min.

R6 is the slowest. Quite inappropriate to call it a Rapid I think. It should simply be route, say, 59; or F6.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Oh so that's what the R stands for...

Bus 503

Quote from: triumph on July 04, 2019, 12:34:22 amThis raises the question of the validity of R9 being described as Rapid.
As an example, comparing the R9 and rte 31 departing Cohen St Interchange at 3.17pm and 3.06pm respectively, the R9 is scheduled to take 29min to the Dickson Interchange, and the rte 31 just one minute longer! A negligible difference. If rte 31 is not Rapid then logically, nor is R9. It would be better labelled as route, say, 33. Or replace the 'R' with 'F' for frequent.

A similar situation exists with R6. We made the mistake of using the R6 between Woden and the National Gallery thinking the direct Rapid would be quick! In fact, the next R4 to Regatta Point stop and then double back on R2/R6 would have been much quicker.
Comparing services around 3pm between Woden and City Interchanges,
R4 17min
R5 34min
Rte58 40min
Rte57 48min
R6 50min.

R6 is the slowest. Quite inappropriate to call it a Rapid I think. It should simply be route, say, 59; or F6.


Completely agree. I've always assumed that a "rapid" service should be both fast and frequent. Many of these "rapids" are just frequent but not significantly faster (i.e fewer stops, taking more direct paths) than regular routes.

Busnerd

I'm not sure any part of Watson classifies as High Density housing, the closest High Density would probably be near Barry Drive in the City.

triumph

Route 18 Gungahlin-Mitchell via Harrison and Franklin has been amended effective from Saturday last, 6th July, 2019.

The route has been extended full time (except first early morning weekdays service) to the Canberra Racecourse, Randwick Rd, to provide, according to Transport Canberra, a convenient alternative connection with the Light Rail at the Epic and Racecourse Station. To that end a stop has been added immediately after the turn into Randwick Rd.. The bus continues on to turn back at the former event stop at the Racecourse (but no stop is provided in Randwick Rd back at Flemington Rd). All Bimberi diversions occur on outbound journeys only, which inhibits, a little, the Light Rail connection objective.

Transport Canberra however is a bit confused. The 'printable timetable and map' issued with the announcement shows the outbound terminus as the stop in Randwick Rd at Flemington Rd.. The map shows it at the Racecourse turn back. Inbound journeys are shown as commencing at the same point EXCEPT that Bimberi is shown as the commencing point for diverted services.

So far only a Randwick Rd mapping/stop identity error. BUT the internal display in the bus and the next bus display at Gungahlin Place give the destination as Gungahlin! Not helpful at Gungahlin. The bus destination refers to a 'loop' service and, in a practical sense, it operates as a 'loop' out and back service. The 'non-printable' website timetable is presented loop style and does not show Sat and Sun services as extended, though these are in the 'printable' version.
Further, the information panel listing services from the Platform at Gungahlin Place lists route 18 as'Mitchell via Harrison and Franklin' but shows route 19 and other appropriate routes as '..... Loop'.

Somebody in TC appears not to have paid attention (the previous version of the timetable was also confused), with the golden opportunity to straighten all this out with the amendment of the route and issue of a refreshed timetable not taken. In fact it is now slightly worse (mapping/identity error mentioned).

The intriguing aspect is how did this quite significant amendment come about? A retiring gesture from a retiring Assembly Member perhaps?

 


Sylvan Loves Buses

That explains why that blade was there and not at the terminus, thanks for clearing that up.

Northside

This is good news. The old connection to Mitchell via Well Station and back again was just horrendous. Now they just need to do it properly and allow Bimberi connections both ways and make this a regular route (not a stupid loop route), by adjusting the route to run the same way through Mitchell (ie via Brookes St) in both directions.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Just read the email notification of the route 18 change. I still feel it should revert back to the old days of Viscars street, but of course TC will never do that - they never do anything that assists the less-able and necessary customers. The lack of a tram stop for the southern part of Mitchell is a great representation of that.


Oh boo hoo, no one catches the bus to Fyshwick anymore...

triumph

Quote from: triumph on July 09, 2019, 12:05:27 amRoute 18 Gungahlin-Mitchell via Harrison and Franklin has been amended effective from Saturday last, 6th July, 2019.

.....................

The intriguing aspect is how did this quite significant amendment come about? A retiring gesture from a retiring Assembly Member perhaps?

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on July 13, 2019, 03:28:33 amJust read the email notification of the route 18 change. .................TC will never do that - they never do anything that assists the less-able and necessary customers. The lack of a tram stop for the southern part of Mitchell is a great representation of that.

Now Sylvan's post gives rise to another speculation as to why this route change got a guernsey - are we about to learn that the Mitchell Light Rail Stop to be located near Sandford St and promised for construction once the Light Rail service was in operation is seriously delayed, or even cancelled?

It is interesting that there appears to be no political announcements/publicity over the change to route 18. Perhaps understandable given previous statements indicating no changes until the new network was bedded in and reviewed, which would not be completed untill much later in the year.

Busnerd

The stop is going ahead, not sure when though but it will be happening, and rather obviously to be positioned in the stop sized area at Sandford Street.

Bus 400

What I've hopefully missed, but if the timings on the network were throughly worked out. How can 1 just add a 10 minute loop to a bus route without affecting the finishing time?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk


Northside

I assume that there is a fair amount of fat built into some of these runs. The 18 in particular has had low use from what I've seen. So that 10 mins can be made up pretty easily.

triumph

Well, well, well. Whilst it is widely believed that the 'R' of the R series routes stand for 'Rapid' as in a quicker trip. This is not the case with TC's torturous use of plain english.

Quoting from Team Leader, Customer Experience, Transport Canberra:
The Rapid 6 route refers to the frequency of the service, not the length of time the route takes, the Rapid routes are designed to move residents across the City connecting between town centres.

So, it seems Rapid in TC speak means more often, not quicker.

Make of this what you will.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Yeah, TC's word for quicker routes is 'streamlined' aka all networks since 2006, but mostly network 2012 or 2014 (whichever one had that massive A3 proposal pamphlet).

Sure, the R6 is rapid, but I've seen how terrible the connections for it are in afternoon peak - Woden bound. There are some shifts that get caught in traffic before even starting at City West and some that get overloaded with passengers before hitting Kingston. On one occasion on arrival to Narrabundah I was on an R6 which was following a R6 which was at least 30 minutes late (if not more) with the one I was on being 15 minutes late cause he got to City West from his previous run that late. When I got off at the college, another R6 which was barely on time arrived too.
I've read those statistics of 'on-time-ness', and from what I've experienced, I find them hard to believe.
Quote from: a few years ago96% of routes this month were on time
my ass...

The Tuggeranong to Woden corridors' R4 is supposedly rapid too, and certainly is to an extent. Between 10am and 3pm, those 10 minute periods feel like 20 minutes, and I could swear travelling from Tuggeranong to Belconnen didn't use to take as long as it does now. #bringback705 (without the cooleman extension and half hourly all day everyday)

Busnerd

Quote from: triumph on July 16, 2019, 11:37:43 pmWell, well, well. Whilst it is widely believed that the 'R' of the R series routes stand for 'Rapid' as in a quicker trip. This is not the case with TC's torturous use of plain english.

Quoting from Team Leader, Customer Experience, Transport Canberra:
The Rapid 6 route refers to the frequency of the service, not the length of time the route takes, the Rapid routes are designed to move residents across the City connecting between town centres.

So, it seems Rapid in TC speak means more often, not quicker.

Make of this what you will.
That's what I always understood it to mean, Rapid meaning frequent, it was never about the route length.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: triumph on July 31, 2019, 11:02:27 pmOver 20min of allocated journey time not needed. One wonders just how Transport Canberra assessed new network journey times?

Yes, it's ridiculous.
Many drivers who start runs from City West wait an additional 5+ mins before leaving due to the timetable allowing them an extra 7 minutes or something to get to their next stop.
Another I had on Monday: Rode a R6 P3 from Woden around 7pm, he purposely left Woden 5 mins late, got to the Hospital 2:40 mins late, but it didn't stop there. He literally drove the full distance of Hindmarsh Drive (Hospital to Red Hill) at 30-40kph, and the timer sat at 2:40 mins late the whole way - Hindmarsh Drive is an 80 zone...
Same with R5s in the evening after getting away from the Parlimentary zone. Going at legal speed, you can be 5 mins late and get to Woden 1 min late...

TC put so much effort into making the trams stay on time, why couldn't they do the same with the buses, as they've pretty much always done? oh yeah those bean counters don't care I forgot...

Busnerd

TC don't run the trams, Canberra Metro does, they make the trams run on time, not Transport Canberra.

Sylvan Loves Buses

August 03, 2019, 11:54:55 am #117 Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 06:15:32 pm by Busnerd
Oh my mistake sorry. Should've known the trams had no affiliation with 'Transport Canberra' what-so-ever.

Admin Note: Image posted without photographers permission. - Removed.

Busnerd

No one said they don't have any affiliation, they're contracted to run the service BY Transport Canberra, CMET is the actual operator who runs the service, TC just sets the contract/rules/expectations.

triumph

Not sure if this has been previously mentioned.

Similar to local services terminating at Emu Bank Bus Station, the timetable book for Gungahlin lists services terminating at Gungahlin Place BUT the Getting Around section of the TC web site shows R8, 19, 25 to 28 proceeding beyond Gungahlin Place to 'Gungahlin/Valley'.

Gungahlin/Valley is not Burgman Valley. But 'Find a Stop' wouldn't work when I tried so I haven't yet been able to confirm the location of Gungahlin/Valley but assume it is the layover area in The Valley Avenue.

Busnerd

It is also displayed on the screens in the bus that the last stop is the Valley Ave layover, which explains the R8 blade at the 'terminating' platform

triumph

Took an R8 to Gungahlin today and decided to try out the trip beyond Gungahlin Place to Gungahlin/Valley.

On arrival at Gungahlin Place the bus emptied except for me and the driver started to reverse to layover at the platform. I asked why and he came and looked at the in-bus display and then consulted his run page. We continued then as far as The Valley Ave at which point the driver said he had never done this bit and was unsure where to go. Ended up at stop in Manning Clark via Camilleri Way.

Looking at the timetables, nearly all buses arriving at Gungahlin Place, Platform 3 should continue to Gungahlin/Valley, but many don't. Some layover at the platform and others seem to be back at Platform 4 very quickly.

From the experience described and past observations, it seems that continuing to Gungahlin/Valley is not the routine the timetable calls for. Has circumstances and practice changed and the timetable failed to keep up?

Associated with this, the practice has developed of laying over on the West side of Gungahlin Place, South from Efkarpidis St. This creates a very real traffic danger. Drivers from the west in Efkarpidis St.face a Give Way sign with hold line but the view of oncoming traffic fron their right is totally obscured by parked buses. They are thus trapped, obliged to Give Way but can't adequately see what's coming.
 

Bus 503

Can anyone confirm whether ACTION has made minor changes to shifts this week, specifically on weekdays? I got on an R5 this week, surprised to see a Tuggeranong ARTIC operating the shift when I am pretty sure it was previously run by a Belconnen ARTIC (perhaps I'm dreaming about this though).
Anyway though, certain trip formations that used to happen on some shifts are definitely no longer happening, and two shifts that I thought were wheelchair accessible are now getting non-wheelchair accessible buses.

Barry Drive

There was a new GTFS released recently. I haven't checked to see what has changed, but there have been reports of changes to bus types during the week.

Changing runs between depots is possible, but I can't tell that from the GTFS.

King of Buses

There have definitely been changes on weekdays. Haven't noticed any change to which depot runs what, only that a fair few trips (in peak mainly) no longer operate before/after certain other trips, so some relearning has been required for those who pay attention to that sort of thing, such as myself. Bus allocations have also changed on a lot of trips. For example I now get an artic on a trip I get each day rather than a "std" (which was normally a "EURO" anyway so no real loss).

Believe a lot of the changes that have been made have been to add in some additional "short" R4 services from the City to Tuggeranong in PM peak. I'm sure there's other reasons too though, as AM services are also affected.

And may be wrong, but was it something out of the 511-516 range you got the other day? If so, those are now at Tuggeranong Depot. Could also have been just something covering a run as a one off too.

triumph

A senior driver told me today that TC is getting ready to update the timetable after the Christmas break. Senior drivers get first choice of shifts and are now being asked to nominate for the new shifts. (Didn't get around to any possible route changes.)

Perhaps it is time to start topic 'Network 2020'.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: triumph on November 21, 2019, 11:25:07 pm(181) last of peak services. 11 Passengers. Not encouraging patronage at all.

I'm surprised, yet not surprised at the same time. I remember quite a bit of hype leading up to the network where the Lanyon area people demanded an expresso bus back after being threatened of not having one after the proposal, and now look at them... The 181 is quite underutilised, whereas the 180 has much more patronage, funny enough with more Renaults being used on them in the evening (during school terms).

Barry Drive

Chris Steel has announced that buses will not use Anketell St in Greenway from April 2020.

Date of the next bus network change anyone?

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well they better put a bus stop on Cowlishaw street or sooner to compensate. It's been dreadful not having that stop outside the shops since they removed it.

Barry Drive

They can install a stop there, but buses won't go anywhere near it.

They'll probably try banning dead running via Anketell as well.