Website | Forum | Gallery | Fleet Wiki
ACT Bus Forum

Network 2019 - the proposal

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Toyota Camry

  • *
  • 62
  • Gender: Male
  • Hybrid
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2018, 08:53:11 PM »
For those of us like myself who have only buses as a choice of accessibility (no taxi, no phone for uber, nothin')
I recommend that you visit the Optus store at Westfield Woden; they are very helpful and can sell you a mobile phone that will allow you to use ride sharing applications including Uber, GoCatch and Ola.

Offline Bus 400

  • ***
  • 4685
  • Gender: Male
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2018, 10:01:42 PM »
At the moment, 514 route services start between 7-9am in Canberra. This excludes buses that start at 06:59 or earlier & 09:00 & later. I also haven't counted all school services yet.

Without knowing not in peak direction frequencies, roughly 360 services will run in one direction. By the looks of things, it'll be the cutting school buses which will get this network.

Offline Barry Drive

  • *****
  • 3698
  • Gender: Male
  • Obscurantist
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2018, 11:07:21 AM »
This does raise an interesting question though: what will happen with the anti-peak flow,  particularly of "Rapids"?

Will there be almost empty buses operating the full route to Spence, Dunlop and Watson in the morning, but running at peak frequency? (And reverse in the evenings?)

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

  • **
  • 1006
  • Gender: Male
  • Yay 1000 posts #noonecares #crievrytiem
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #103 on: July 17, 2018, 09:07:02 AM »
Same with the Airport rapid too, how many people really need to go to the Airport that often.

Offline Snorzac

  • ***
  • 4131
  • Gender: Male
    • Zac's Flickr
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #104 on: July 17, 2018, 03:33:17 PM »
You'd actually be surprised how many people are actually getting the buses to the airport, if public transport is in place on a regular basis people will actually use it as proven by the regular operation of the 11/11A. i have caught the bus to work on multiple occasions since moving house recently and it is not uncommon for there to be 10-15 people on the bus travelling to or from the airport

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

  • **
  • 1006
  • Gender: Male
  • Yay 1000 posts #noonecares #crievrytiem
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2018, 07:24:39 PM »
Ok, but 10-15 minutes I don't think would exactly be necessary, surely 20-30 would be enough.

Offline triumph

  • *
  • 219
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbie
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2018, 09:16:59 PM »
I use a route with 1/2hr interval during the day and 20min at peak. It is surprising how relaxing it is to realise that there will be another in 20min as you watch the just missed bus disappear, compared with the drag of waiting 1/2hr. If you can't plan precisely around the bus timetable (eg appointments 5min before scheduled arrival, random task completion) it is very encouraging to opt for public transport if it is basically turn up, no more than a short wait, and go and if delayed there is a later service to use. Thus the point is, not what present usage is but what usage can be developed over time. (Melbourne trams are a good example of how users automatically opt for the trams when services are frequent. Very often, on week days at least, if you miss a tram the next is already in sight.)

Commenting on the airport aspect, it is easy to overlook the substantial non-aviation commercial development that exists there. A bigger concern however, is that a large number of flights depart very early in the morning. Taking into account check-in times, the present bus service is not useful for substantial numbers of passengers, especially from beyond the City. This is a major failing of public transport in general. Each service is treated in isolation rather than being considered as a whole co-ordinated system from origin to destination. 

Offline King of Buses

  • ***
  • 1395
  • Gender: Male
  • Eat my salad, Halloween!
    • My Flickr Account
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2018, 09:18:29 PM »
Ok, but 10-15 minutes I don't think would exactly be necessary, surely 20-30 would be enough.

Over time patronage to/from the airport will build up further with a Rapid bus every 10-15 mins as the Airport gets busier - which is important if LR and/or HSR ever make there.

However, the Spence to Belconnen sector of the R3, the Fraser to Kippax sector of the R2, the Calwell to Lanyon section of the R5 and the Watson to Dickson sector of the R9 however won't likely build patronage like this, so I'm more concerned about why these areas need a bus every 10-15 mins all day, when maybe only every second trip could service these sections of the routes (or, better still, not bother at all and make everyone in Dunlop/Macgregor and Spence/Florey transfer from/to a suburban service at the nearest group/town centre like every other suburb in Canberra).

Offline Snorzac

  • ***
  • 4131
  • Gender: Male
    • Zac's Flickr
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2018, 09:38:53 PM »
Commenting on the airport aspect, it is easy to overlook the substantial non-aviation commercial development that exists there. A bigger concern however, is that a large number of flights depart very early in the morning. Taking into account check-in times, the present bus service is not useful for substantial numbers of passengers, especially from beyond the City. This is a major failing of public transport in general. Each service is treated in isolation rather than being considered as a whole co-ordinated system from origin to destination. 

Hit the nail on the head...the earliest flight you can currently make based off check in times is an 0715 departure if you really want to push it, this leaves at least 5 flights from one airline alone (plus whatever the opposition offer) not serviced by public transport on a weekday morning, evenings you do not have any service to the only arrival from both Perth and the Gold Coast each day as well as no access to public transport for passengers travelling to or from Canberra on a Singapore Airlines.

You could argue that services on this particular service should operate at earlier hours of the morning or later into the evening but then that raises the issue of what it connects with and whether it is worth operating a service with no connections.

Personally I believe that Canberra  should move to a 24 hour network with hourly to half hour trunk or rapid services connecting with flexible demand responsive area services. Whilst patronage isn't ever going to be high for these services, there is still a need for it in my opinion and this would solve the afformentioned issues with a service to the airport.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

  • **
  • 1006
  • Gender: Male
  • Yay 1000 posts #noonecares #crievrytiem
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2018, 01:02:56 PM »
I would certainly vote for 24hr too, I still can't see why they won't. Just gotta wait for them to pull their thumbs out of their butts I guess...

However, the Spence to Belconnen sector of the R3, the Fraser to Kippax sector of the R2, the Calwell to Lanyon section of the R5 and the Watson to Dickson sector of the R9 however won't likely build patronage like this, so I'm more concerned about why these areas need a bus every 10-15 mins all day, when maybe only every second trip could service these sections of the routes

I've been having that same thought too, even now those same sorts of routes (including the 39 during the 3-5pm period) have so many that there's pretty much only half of them with actual patronage on them after/before the Interchanges.

Melbourne trams are a good example of how users automatically opt for the trams when services are frequent. Very often, on week days at least, if you miss a tram the next is already in sight.

Yes of course, but all the trams of a single area are unlikely to run 20 minutes late every single day at the same period due to the use of their own roads. This is another of the issues I see with the fact of when these busy roads getting held up due to accidents, works, full buses or/and the driver arriving to start the route late from the previous route. The problem there will be that there'd be several of those 10 minute frequency buses all within a minute or two of each other when they get away again. Of course this doesn't happen all the time, but I feel it's something the govenrment doesn't think too much about when it does. I finally got around to watching that parliament meeting about the discussion for this project, and this did not come up in the discussion.

Offline Snorzac

  • ***
  • 4131
  • Gender: Male
    • Zac's Flickr
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2018, 02:15:28 PM »
As they teach you when you work in the airline industry....you cant roster or plan for schedule disruption, if it is a constant issue then it is something that will need to be addressed but there is no way to predict and plan the pattern of say traffic disruptions, etc

Offline ajw373

  • *
  • 418
  • Newbie
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2018, 09:14:48 PM »
Hit the nail on the head...the earliest flight you can currently make based off check in times is an 0715 departure if you really want to push it, this leaves at least 5 flights from one airline alone (plus whatever the opposition offer) not serviced by public transport on a weekday morning, evenings you do not have any service to the only arrival from both Perth and the Gold Coast each day as well as no access to public transport for passengers travelling to or from Canberra on a Singapore Airlines.

You could argue that services on this particular service should operate at earlier hours of the morning or later into the evening but then that raises the issue of what it connects with and whether it is worth operating a service with no connections.

Personally I believe that Canberra  should move to a 24 hour network with hourly to half hour trunk or rapid services connecting with flexible demand responsive area services. Whilst patronage isn't ever going to be high for these services, there is still a need for it in my opinion and this would solve the afformentioned issues with a service to the airport.

Realistically how many people are getting buses to the airport that are flying? I would say not many, most passengers would be working in the airport (though most would drive, or like a mate of mine who works there ride his pushy) or more than likley the business park.

Offline Snorzac

  • ***
  • 4131
  • Gender: Male
    • Zac's Flickr
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2018, 11:33:25 PM »
As I said, the 11/11A is a classic case of if the service is there, people will use it. I got the bus to the airport for a flight this morning and there was about 15 pax on the bus and about 10 had baggage.

Offline Toyota Camry

  • *
  • 62
  • Gender: Male
  • Hybrid
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #113 on: July 26, 2018, 04:24:11 PM »
I am guessing that this route 54 bus was being driven by a manager, in control of the new network; otherwise they would not have blocked an ordinary bus, as a bus driver would not be able to change the network proposal.

Quote
'Insulting': bus route changes hit elderly, defence personnel
Finbar O'Mallon
By Finbar O'Mallon
25 July 2018 — 8:49pm

    Share on Facebook
    Share on Twitter
    Send via Email

Leave a comment

Crace residents protested against the ACT government's proposed 2019 changes to Canberra's bus routes on Wednesday.

About 40 protesters gathered at the route 54 bus stop near the Crace shops, temporarily stopping a Belconnen-bound bus.


Residents of Goodwin Retirement Village and supportive neighbours in Crace hold a silent demonstration to protest the government’s proposed changes to their bus route. They briefly stepped out in front of the 11.22am bus.
Photo: Karleen Minney

The protests mark a tide of growing anger against the government's flagged changes, following on from cancellation of dedicated bus services for Canberra schools.

In Braddon, older locals are concerned the routes will confine them to the inner-north. Another proposed change would force defence personnel in Campbell Park to walk a kilometre on the side of an unlit road to catch a new bus from Fairbairn Avenue.

The Crace protesters, mainly elderly residents of the nearby Goodwin Retirement Village, currently catch the 54 bus directly to Belconnen.
Advertisement

But the government's proposed changes would mean the 54 stop at the shops would be axed, forcing travellers to walk nearly one kilometre to Gundaroo Drive to catch a bus into Gungahlin before catching a second to Belconnen.

Crace residents committee secretary Sue Brudenall said most of the village residents travelled to Belconnen for their doctors and medical appointments, shopping or just to see the movies.

"There's a lot more at Belconnen than at Gungahlin at the moment," Ms Brudenall said.

Ms Brudenall said there was no shelter on the way to the new stop at Gundaroo Drive.

"That's too much for a lot of people who are in their 70s because it's about a kilometre walk, plus they're doing all the roadworks," Ms Brudenall said.

Ms Brudenall said the bus was also used by University of Canberra students.

A small group of the residents will be back at the Crace chops on Saturday to collect signatures for a petition they plan to hand to ACT Opposition Leader Liberal MLA Alistair Coe.

A transport directorate spokesman told The Canberra Times on Thursday confirmed the government had received a submission from the village.

It admitted alternative stops for Crace residents were a further walk but said the government's "flexibus", a free community shuttle for older Canberrans and those with mobility issues, could take them to the stops.

In Braddon, Jennifer Bluhm - a resident of retirement village Girrahween Lodge - said potential changes to the route seven bus expected in 2019 were insulting.

Lodge residents are able to catch the route seven bus right outside their door on Girrahween Street, but changes would force them to either walk three blocks south to Cooyong Road for a route 52 bus or six blocks west to Northbourne Avenue for the then-completed tram.

Ms Bluhm said one of the lodge residents was an 82-year-old woman with a walker.

"She's not going to walk to Northbourne Avenue in any event, she said 'I may as well walk to Civic'," Ms Bluhm said.

While the route seven bus takes the lodge residents straight to Belconnen, the 52 bus travels to Dickson shops where they would take a second bus to Belconnen.

"Who ever heard of two buses connecting?" Ms Bluhm asked.

Ms Bluhm said her gym and her doctor were based in Belconnen, and she normally travelled to her doctor on weekends, when the 52 bus doesn't operate.

The government has suggested inner-north residents use the "flexibus".

But this free service only takes them to Civic, Dickson or Ainslie.

"How would you feel if someone says you can only go to Civic?" Ms Bluhm said.

Ms Bluhm said while she might be able to accept it, she doubted ACT government ministers would. Transport staff had told Ms Bluhm the changes may be reviewed but it's possible they would stay as flagged.

"I put it in the insulting category. I think it's very poorly considered and just a mess," Ms Bluhm said.

Ms Bluhm said perhaps she had been naive but this was never raised when the government began constructing the tram.

"It was never said that the whole bus network would be upset to accommodate the tram," she said.

Ms Bluhm said no one had considered the social cost of these changes either, confining people to suburbs, forcing medical personnel to travel to them and friends who no longer drove to be separated.

The Braddon locals are meeting on Friday at St Columba's Church from 1pm where they expect local opposition MLAs and transport heads to attend.

A transport directorate spokesman said the government would meet with Braddon residents but said they also had alternatives of the flexibus or a subsidised taxi scheme.

Elsewhere, a bus stop outside the defence offices in Campbell Park, opposite Duntroon, would be cut under the route changes.

Staff would be then forced to walk down Northcott Drive, an unlit road with no footpath, to catch a bus off Fairbairn Avenue.

A Transport directorate spokesman said they would meet with Campbell Park staff to discuss the changes but said the route seven bus only is only used modestly during peak hour on weekdays.

Offline vnguyen

  • *
  • 91
  • Newbie
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #114 on: August 02, 2018, 09:27:37 PM »
Which routes/sections in the current network the they should leave in this new network that has been scrapped?

Offline Toyota Camry

  • *
  • 62
  • Gender: Male
  • Hybrid
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2018, 11:47:29 PM »
I have noticed that in this new network, there are school deviations planned for some rapid trips; in my opinion rapid routes should stick to their routes, and not divert via school grounds. I have noticed that the current blue rapid and red rapid services do not have any school diversions between Lanyon and Kippax; or between Fyshwick and Gungahlin, I believe there should not be any.

For example; R4 & R5 will operate some trips via Alfred Deakin High, instead of running on Yarra Glen between Woden and Civic.

This information was found at this link; https://canberrabuses.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Alfred_Deakin_High_Guide.pdf

Offline Busfanatic101

  • *
  • 664
  • Gender: Male
  • Your typical Canberra Bus Enthusiast
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #116 on: August 26, 2018, 08:37:39 AM »
For example; R4 & R5 will operate some trips via Alfred Deakin High, instead of running on Yarra Glen between Woden and Civic.

This information was found at this link; https://canberrabuses.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Alfred_Deakin_High_Guide.pdf


Diverting via Deakin High is a minor inconvenience compared to what Woden-Civic travel will likely be like in a few years if light rail stage 2 goes ahead.


It will be a significant improvement for Deakin HS and you can't underestimate the patronage they get from there. The only issue I have with it is that it goes against the same routes 24/7 philosophy used to justify everything else.

Offline ajw373

  • *
  • 418
  • Newbie
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #117 on: August 26, 2018, 08:52:24 AM »
This is getting off topic I know. But how is Barton diversion of the City to Woden route proposed for light rail any different to the diversion of the Belconnen to City route via College Street all those years ago. That diversion cost about the same amount of time (7 mins) as the Barton diversion will cost Woden to city but open up, like the college street diversion a whole heap more options for passengers.

And also I think there is some shadow fighting as the government has not announced what will happen to bus routes. If I were to tea leave read based on the new rapid routes I would say the R4 will stay as a direct bus Woden to City and R5 the diversion through Barton. Oddly more or less like the R5 is planned to do anyway.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

  • **
  • 1006
  • Gender: Male
  • Yay 1000 posts #noonecares #crievrytiem
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #118 on: August 26, 2018, 03:44:42 PM »
The whole plan of cutting most of the school runs is a bad idea anyway, it's gonna cause so much havoc amongst the normal routes and rapids, more full buses on suburban routes forcing more real patrons to wait etc.

Offline Busfanatic101

  • *
  • 664
  • Gender: Male
  • Your typical Canberra Bus Enthusiast
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #119 on: August 26, 2018, 05:08:07 PM »
more full buses on suburban routes forcing more real patrons to wait etc.

I think fuller buses on suburban routes is exactly the point. Better than running empty buses. And I'd be keen to learn what definition of a real patron excludes students catching a bus to school.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 12:07:11 PM by Barry Drive »

Offline Toyota Camry

  • *
  • 62
  • Gender: Male
  • Hybrid
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #120 on: August 26, 2018, 10:33:41 PM »
I think fuller buses on suburban routes is exactly the point. Better than running empty buses. And I'd be keen to learn what definition of a real patron excludes students catching a bus to school.
You are aware of what the old saying is, "children are to be seen and not heard"; I do not wish for my bus to travel 10 minutes out of the way to pick up some screaming brats, they should be on a school bus instead. My car does not deviate for screaming children; neither should my bus.

Offline Busfanatic101

  • *
  • 664
  • Gender: Male
  • Your typical Canberra Bus Enthusiast
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #121 on: August 26, 2018, 11:14:06 PM »
You are aware of what the old saying is, "children are to be seen and not heard"; I do not wish for my bus to travel 10 minutes out of the way to pick up some screaming brats, they should be on a school bus instead. My car does not deviate for screaming children; neither should my bus.


Think of that run as a school bus then that is happy to pick up other passengers too. A bus that would have previously done a school run and been unavailable to the general public, converted to an extra service that the public can also use. If you don't deviate for students, catch another bus. No loss there. Let's just hope your other non-deviating bus doesn't have any students on board.

Offline Bus 400

  • ***
  • 4685
  • Gender: Male
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2018, 05:52:56 PM »
I wonder if a different idea would be to start a 4 & 5 from schools like Alfred Deakin & Melrose/Marist High Schools. Bit like Belconnen suburban buses do now from Radford.


Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk


Offline Busfanatic101

  • *
  • 664
  • Gender: Male
  • Your typical Canberra Bus Enthusiast
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2018, 08:04:57 PM »
I wonder if a different idea would be to start a 4 & 5 from schools like Alfred Deakin & Melrose/Marist High Schools. Bit like Belconnen suburban buses do now from Radford.
That's a good suggestion and perhaps what they already have in mind.
There were/are 2s that started/finished at Lyneham High, and as an example of a rapid service that does this currently is a 200 that starts at Narrabundah College.
Given Deakin High is located centrally, most probably a bus will have to travel from belco/tuggers depots or at least through woden/civic, so there may be minimal advantage to start at Deakin as they will just be dead running half the same route.
Either way, it is likely that these diversion services will be in addition to the regular frequency, so an extra option for commuters rather than an inconvenience.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

  • **
  • 1006
  • Gender: Male
  • Yay 1000 posts #noonecares #crievrytiem
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #124 on: September 05, 2018, 09:58:07 PM »
Saw 921 again on Monday and both 920 and 921 at the city today doing some more timings for the coming network.

Offline Barry Drive

  • *****
  • 3698
  • Gender: Male
  • Obscurantist
Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2018, 12:41:38 PM »
Media Release from yesterday. (Link)

"The full details of the changes we will make following this consultation will be announced in October, with ongoing discussions with a number of groups," said Minister Fitzharris.