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Network 2019 - the proposal

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Offline vnguyen

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2018, 02:37:39 PM »
The R9 wouldn't make sense to combine, not the R10, as that would make a Watson to Belconnen and a Denman Prospect to City service a Watson to City via Belconnen and Molonglo service?

I meant R7 and at R10 not R9

Offline King of Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2018, 10:43:51 PM »
Just noticed: school services (or the few which remain) are now 4 digit route numbers. For example: 1002.

School runs mostly only appear to be for the purpose of shuttling students to/from the nearest town/group centre and/or connection point to suburban routes, rather than from a school to everywhere in the surrounding region - this will NOT go down well, I imagine. It will save a lot of buses though.

Not sure if we have enough artics to handle that though (unless they run multiples of the same service with rigids, where needed). I'm sure they'd have thought about such things though...

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2018, 11:14:07 PM »
Just noticed: school services (or the few which remain) are now 4 digit route numbers. For example: 1002.

School runs mostly only appear to be for the purpose of shuttling students to/from the nearest town/group centre and/or connection point to suburban routes, rather than from a school to everywhere in the surrounding region - this will NOT go down well, I imagine. It will save a lot of buses though.

Not sure if we have enough artics to handle that though (unless they run multiples of the same service with rigids, where needed). I'm sure they'd have thought about such things though...


Interesting. I'm surprised Fadden PS gets its own school bus which completely overlaps 74/75 when they seem so set on not providing school services in general.


Looking forward to seeing all the Narrabundah students try and cram onto R6 - currently the 864 and 6 to Woden (Artic and Iris) are both full, 862 and 6 to City (PR3 and MAN) are also both full (614 to city with the artic was well utilized alongside 862 too until they made that useless by idling in front of the school until 4:15pm). I won't be there to see it anymore.

Offline vnguyen

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2018, 01:01:52 AM »
The R2 going to COC could work in the evenings if TC and QCIT transit have a thing going so Queanbeyan residents can change at COC for late night buses to Queanbeyan which they don't have from Canberra.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2018, 01:50:17 AM »
I'm not certain what they plan on doing with route 56, as I don't think it needs to go to Fyshwick at all hours of the day.

I have to disagree with you there, there's quite a lot to do in Fyshwick plus the DIY stores around the place. For quite a majority of the locations I have visited there over the past couple of years, it's become a pain in the butt to not only navigate around there, but work out the best way to travel around whilst making sure there's a way home after if planning for an all-day shop frenzy. 

For example, I created this list a few weeks ago to go shopping there with my mum, but because of the current network being so aggravatingly inconvenient, trying to plan a all-day trip/shop to take a photo of a bus stop, buy 1 thing at COC, spending some time looking at wheelchairs and stuff (cause of mum's twin hip operation last year) at a store that ironically no longer has an operational bus stop outside its door, spending a couple hours looking a beds and mattresses (although only going to HN cause going to the other bed stores would need another day trip) and then trying to connect to a Tuggeranong (not really) express, with as little walking as possible and almost missing out on Bunnings, is annoying, unnecessarily time consuming, and a plain old annoyance.

But back to late services though... There are many things to do in Fyshwick, some involving educational things which is always a surprise to me when I see those sorts of things in an industrial suburb like Fyshwick. The issue with those is they're on late in the evening, and with the current network the only way of getting home is walking to Narrabundah to get a bus back to the Woden or even the City and even then missing the last evening suburban service, cause at the night the 200's only go from the Railway Station and the 80s stop around 6pm.

At least an hourly service up until like 10/11pm or something would do for those of us whos only option is to get the bus or take all night trying to find a cab...


Also, what's the FRC route? Can't seem to find anywhere that explains what it is.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2018, 08:16:26 AM »
Also, what's the FRC route? Can't seem to find anywhere that explains what it is.
Future Rapid Corridor. I personally can't see what they're waiting for, doesn't need to be a rapid but would be a good connection to have from Weston Creek/Molonglo to Belco.

Offline Toyota Camry

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2018, 09:22:12 AM »
But back to late services though... There are many things to do in Fyshwick, some involving educational things which is always a surprise to me when I see those sorts of things in an industrial suburb like Fyshwick. The issue with those is they're on late in the evening
Brothels? Buying porn?

Not many would want to be seen waiting for a bus outside a brothel at night; it is a sure fire hint of where they have been, most would pay $10 for an Uber to keep their dignity.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2018, 01:21:24 PM »
That's not what I was talking about...

Future Rapid Corridor. I personally can't see what they're waiting for, doesn't need to be a rapid but would be a good connection to have from Weston Creek/Molonglo to Belco.

Ah, I see - or a Tuggeranong express would be nice too.

Offline muke

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2018, 07:14:34 PM »
Future Rapid Corridor. I personally can't see what they're waiting for, doesn't need to be a rapid but would be a good connection to have from Weston Creek/Molonglo to Belco.

I would speculate that the road, involving a low level bridge liable to frequent flooding with no easy alternate route for diversion, would mean the road/route whilst suitable for buses is only presently used by buses not in service taking a short cut rather than an official public route service.

Offline Snorzac

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2018, 12:56:43 AM »
Whilst upon reading your post I would agree that this is most likely the reason for not having the R10 travel to Belconnen, according to Google maps travelling from Denman Prospect to Belconnen is only three minutes longer than via Coppins Crossing, so by building an extra few minutes into the back end of the run (which should be the case with all services to stop flow on effect late running) you can make time for those few occasions when the bus cannot use Coppins Crossing.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2018, 09:05:03 AM »
What is this alternative route you suggest? Coppins Crossing connects Denman prospect to belco

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2018, 02:20:56 PM »
Well just from going over google street view of it, it doesn't look too bad. Albeit it may be dangerous at night and/or during heavy rain, the obvious alternative would be up Tuggeranong Parkway, it would only cost another 5 or so minutes which isn't so bad (provided there's no accident there too).

Personally I wouldn't vote for it if Tuggeranong doesn't get a direct Belco access too.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Offline Snorzac

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2018, 11:44:47 PM »
What is this alternative route you suggest? Coppins Crossing connects Denman prospect to belco

Sorry, late night post, left the important bits out....It only take three minutes extra between Denman Prospect and Belconnen travelling via the Parkway as opposed to Coppins Crossing, so there is your alternative if Coppins Crossing were to be closed.

Tuggeranong doesn't need a Belconnen direct service, a direct Molonglo to Belconnen service is warranted because of their proximity to each other and also with Molonglo still in the development phase it still lacks a lot of facilities, and due to the proximity of Belconnen it makes the most sense for a link via public transport in my opinion.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2018, 04:01:54 AM »
It's probably not needed for everyone sure, but it is a very handy thing to have.
I found it annoying when they put the 705 back to go through Weston, the route saved at least 15 minutes vs the 300s, more during peak before that, it's just too bad it was never made an all-day service cause trying to get home during the day for a quick little something, at night or on the weekend from a suburb of Belconnen on a 300 is one hell of a boringly time consuming journey, and much worse from Gungahlin - even though it's probably more unlikely that a Gungahlin to Woden/Tuggeranong service will happen now cause of the LR.

Offline Snorzac

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2018, 08:36:53 AM »
Lets be very clear, there is a direct service linking everywhere you want to travel in Canberra...its called a car, and if you don't like that then you need to deal with changing buses and sitting on buses like every other person in Canberra...

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2018, 12:42:45 PM »
It's not that I don't like cars, I just don't like your attitude on this matter.
I already do deal with that as I have done for the past 21 years...
Besides, fuel is expensive, taxis aren't cheap, and neither my mum nor I have a license, so what else am I suppose to do huh? I've been whining about buses for 20 years, it's not like I'm gonna stop...

Offline Toyota Camry

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2018, 07:33:40 PM »
Personally; my opinion is that if you are seeking a lifestyle without cars, you should move to another city, such as Sydney. Canberra has excellent roads for driving on, and that fact combined with small population makes it uneconomical to run enough buses.

My suggestion to you; is that if it is your desire to not ever drive, you should budget enough money to afford trips with taxi and ride sharing services, such as Uber, Ola, GoCatch, Canberra Cabs, Canberra Elite Taxis, CabXpress and ACTCABS.

The alternative, is to spend half of your life divided between sitting on bus stops, at bus stations and on buses taking the long way through the suburbs.

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2018, 12:40:08 PM »
I reckon the R7 could be extended to Tuggeranong via Namatjira Dr, and the 70/71 remain the same or similar to existing routes 60/62, with connections on Sulwood Dr and Drakeford Dr for travel to Cooleman Court
I agree with that. While I would prefer a City - Tuggeranong direct service, a City - Weston - Tuggeranong all-day Rapid is a suitable alternative. And it has the added advantage of shortening the 70/71 as stated.

And while I understand the usefulness of having R8 extend to Molonglo, there just aren't enough people in the area (yet) to make that viable. There's limited amount of buses and drivers (and you can't do everything).

Offline muke

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2018, 07:11:31 PM »
I suspect the ultimate use of the ďFRCĒ will be a direct Belco to Woden via Molonglo and Weston rapid with a connection at Weston for Tuggeranong. It will be the final piece of the puzzle that addresses the present shortcomings if the 300series blue rapids connecting Woden and Belco via City are cut up in the new network.

Offline ajw373

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2018, 04:28:59 PM »
RE the R10 and going to Belconnen vi the FRC. Well that is exactly the plan, FRC stands for Future Rapid Connection so yes it will go to belco.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2018, 05:53:57 PM »
RE the R10 and going to Belconnen vi the FRC. Well that is exactly the plan, FRC stands for Future Rapid Connection so yes it will go to belco.
He said Belco to Woden. So not "exactly", and not suggesting that the R10 should/will extend to belco

Offline ajw373

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2018, 04:41:50 PM »
He said Belco to Woden. So not "exactly", and not suggesting that the R10 should/will extend to belco

And I said R10, which is exactly the plan (it would seem).

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2018, 09:23:57 PM »
Frequencies of local services is now available on the regional factsheets. It appears all bidirectional loops will operate 2 hourly on weekends, ie. staggered 967/968 style. I'm not quite convinced with the whole 'switching buses in return for increased frequency' concept with the frequencies proposed.

Offline ajw373

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2018, 07:32:16 AM »
The frequencies are a bit ambiguous. I was looking at the Gungahlin loops weekday and it says every 20 minutes in peak. But wasnít sure if that was each direction or in total. Then looked at a non loop and it said 30 minutes in the peak which is plain silly foba peak hour service.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2018, 08:25:53 AM »
The frequencies are a bit ambiguous. I was looking at the Gungahlin loops weekday and it says every 20 minutes in peak. But wasnít sure if that was each direction or in total. Then looked at a non loop and it said 30 minutes in the peak which is plain silly foba peak hour service.
It would be each way, not total. There would be no way they have 2 hourly in total on weekends.
I suppose some off-peak frequencies have been doubled (hourly to half-hourly), but for the most part not much of an improvement.

Offline ajw373

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2018, 08:44:19 AM »
When I said total I meant for both routes. So for example the two loops said 20 minute frequencies. To me it means that there will be 1 bus in each direction every 40 minutes which seems to correlate to what you were saying about weekend frequencies in the loop routes.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2018, 09:46:37 AM »
Yeah I know what you meant.
I'm saying that if it says frequency 20 minutes, it would be 3 buses each way for the hour.
I say this because for the weekend, it says frequency is 2-hourly. By this, they would mean what is done now - a clockwise loop one hour and an anticlockwise loop the next. Therefore, I gather that the frequency refers to each direction, rather than in total.


Offline ajw373

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2018, 10:10:25 AM »
Interesting some of the frequencies then. The frequency of the routes around Casey at a hot bizarre in that case. No doubt elsewhere. The loop route 3 in each direction per hour the non loop route 2 per hour.

Offline Toyota Camry

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2018, 12:10:56 AM »
It would be each way, not total. There would be no way they have 2 hourly in total on weekends.
If you live at one end of a loop service, the service may just as easily be two hourly on weekends; for example O'Malley residents have route 923/924 every two hours in each direction, but the journey time to travel the long side of the loop to Woden is too long.

Offline Northside

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2018, 12:59:04 PM »
Why is everyone struggling over the concept of loop routes? Have the previous networks really been that bad to have caused permanent damage!?

They are essentially two separate routes that connect in the middle, that's all. You just have to remember to catch one number in and the other out. If they are treated like separate routes (which they seem to be), then they work well. Having said that, the 2 or three two-hourly frequency routes is pretty poor. Surely it's not a huge difference to make them hourly like all other services?

Offline Northside

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2018, 01:33:12 PM »
Some very quick suggestions from me:

I really don't understand why the R5 needs to go all the way to Lanyon (beyond Calwell) or the R3 all the way to Spence (beyond Belconnen).

For the latter, the 42 and current R3 suburban route can combine to create a 15 min frequency through Florey anyway. For te former, the 76 can be extended to provide a half hourly service through to Laynon.

I'd also rourte the 74/75 via Calwell shops Johnson Dr then Ashley Dr, instead of the length or Clift Cres. This will provide a quick link from Calwell to Tuggeranong.

Send the 66 from Manuka via Canberra Cct to National cct, then via Federation mall and around to COmm Ave - you can then change the 57/58 to use the COmm ave ramp to Parliament house - saving time on all 3 routes.

The R10/67/66 seems overengineered and a waste of resources - but not sure what to do here yet.

18 should travel from Nullarbor to the Woolies shops then via Oodgeroo Ave to Manning Clarke. The route via Cultivation doesn't add a lot of value because yo'd need to take a guess which route is going to leave next so you can judge which LR stop to get off at. It also feeds the fairly busy stop in front of the Early Learning centre.

Extend the R8 after Gungahlin via Mirrabei to Moncrieff Terminus. Also needs a stop between Abena and Barton to transfer 24/25 pax to Belco.

The 27/28 can be combined to run from Gungahlin via Gungahlin Dr, Amagula, Gurrang, Wanganeen, Unaipon, Burrumarra, Jabanungga, Newlop to Casey MP. Return via Gungahlin Dr, Wanganeen, Jabanungga etc. and can then be half hourly rather than hourly.

Then Re-route the 25/26 via Plimol instead of Horse Park - Using Horse Park is complete overkill with the routes on Jabanungga and Plimsol so close.

Re-route 19/20 from Mulligans Flat via L on Horse Park, Amaroo Shops, Burdekin, Paul Coe etc to pick up Paul Coe from 27 and provide access to the shops. Again, Katherine Ave is already serviced by 25/26, except from the other side. So you get the situation where you need to guess what side to wait to cathc you next bus to Gungahlin.

Route 50 past Dickson should become route 52 and be brought back to half hourly - don't bother with a connection to the LR, it still connects to the shops and R9 on Cowper st but will save a heap of time. Just run 52 from Cowper via Torrens, Elouera and Mort instead of looping around Canberra Ctr.

I think that's it for now.

Offline ajw373

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2018, 02:17:01 PM »
Loop routes have been tried before and didnít work too well hence why they were removed.

As for stops on Gundaroo drive between Crace and the highway to transfer from the Gold Creek bus to the Belco to Gunners rapid I bet there will be a stop added but only after the road is duplicated. At present there is no where for one and with the roadworks would be dangerous to put one in and have people crossing the road.

Whilst maybe not truly indicative the flyover video of stage 2 duplication shows a set of stops on the highway side of the Crace roundabout.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #83 on: June 28, 2018, 03:17:04 PM »
Why is everyone struggling over the concept of loop routes? Have the previous networks really been that bad to have caused permanent damage!?

Yes, and what Toyota Camry described is what I've been saying all along too... Just imagine you're a a disabled person in a wheelchair, and the bus comes 2 minutes early, you have to wait 2 hours for the next one cause the other way just takes too long to get to where you're going, or where you're going is where the loop direction you were going is the only way to get there quickly and the other way goes to the interchange and not where you're going.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #84 on: June 28, 2018, 03:18:12 PM »
^ or maybe not even early, maybe it was a Renault.

Offline Bus 400

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #85 on: June 28, 2018, 07:03:33 PM »
I have put a tweet out to Meegan Firzharris & Transport Canberra to see if connections of 5 minutes can be guaranteed.  No response after 2 days.

With the loops, if you were going to miss your bus at Tuggeranong, you could get off the bus on Soward Way or Erindale. With the 4 & 5 not connecting anywhere useful. If you miss your loop at Tuggeranong you're screwed.

I have thought about linking the 10 to the Airport & extending the 4 to Kippax. Could be extended to Ginninderry as time permits. With the 10 running Airport to Airport development (Denman Prospect - Stromlo Forest Park).
Cutting the 2 altogether, with the 40 to go through Macgregor & 41 to go to Kippax via Lhotsky & Florey Dr.

Since the set up is there, maybe the 23/24 could be spilt & terminate at Giralang Terminus. Providing direct link to the 8 & easy turn around for buses to head back to Gungahlin.

I try others later.

Offline vnguyen

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2018, 11:22:00 PM »

Send the 66 from Manuka via Canberra Cct to National cct, then via Federation mall and around to COmm Ave - you can then change the 57/58 to use the COmm ave ramp to Parliament house - saving time on all 3 routes.

Why send a Weston loop service from Manuka? I think you meant the 56.

Offline Northside

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2018, 10:27:32 AM »
Why send a Weston loop service from Manuka? I think you meant the 56.

Typo! My bad, yes you are correct.

Offline triumph

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #88 on: July 12, 2018, 12:03:35 AM »
Transport Canberra is regularly announcing at some interchanges/bus stations the proposed network will have "more buses, more often, to more places".

The first is probably correct, if retirements are postponed (as has been indicated in the forum), and the second is certainly so. But what about 'more places'? I can't see that. What does the forum think?

Route 101. At a consultation at the Belconnen Library the facilitators said that route was a separate function and implied it would continue. But the Canberra Times yesterday reports (with routes 81 and 101 mixed up) otherwise. In or out?

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2018, 10:58:20 AM »
More places, maybe. Certainly not more stops.

I think they're referring to bus routes that will go to Taylor and Throsby for the first time. Even though it may be outnumbered by the places that will lose services, such as Hume, Campbell Park, ANU, Arboretum/Zoo.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2018, 12:21:19 PM »
Yeah, it's more like to more 'newer' places and less 'used' places around Canberra, that's the vibe I'm getting off it.

Quote from: Barry Drive
Certainly not more stops.
Most definitely. I still remember counting a total of 41 sets of stops that were proposed to be removed from the network in just the Wanniassa/Oxley/Erindale area for the Network 14 proposal, this one proposed another 21 sets of stops in the Wanniassa/Kambah area, but this time it's many more stops I know have steady patronage.

I'm not fussed about more often buses, in fact it's about time they've decided to do it properly, but there's not going to be much access to many areas around Canberra if this plan would to go ahead, at least not for a majority of its users.
I have not seen an updated map (if there's been one) since the last I looked so maybe some things may change my mind about how I feel about it, but I'm certainly not in the 'satisfied', nor 'neutral' group yet.

Offline Bus 400

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2018, 07:03:24 PM »
We do have to remember that it has been mentioned that the new network will be done within the current budget. This new network proposes 9 rapids running til midnight Monday to Saturday &10pm on Sunday. So bigger than realized cuts are coming.

Taking that into consideration, has anyone checked how many buses start from 7-9am on weekdays (school buses included) & how many are proposed? Taking in mind that a lot of new services are shorter, so should run more frequently.

If my memory serves my correctly, the current network cut a couple of hundred services in total. Just by ending buses earlier.

Offline Northside

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #92 on: July 13, 2018, 11:25:51 AM »
What I want to figure out is what's happening to the extra bus-kilometres/bus-hours saved by the light rail. Currently there are 20 red-rapid services arriving between 8 and 9am in the morning peak on an approximately 40 min journey. So that's over 13 bus-hours saved just there. Then include all the 5# and 3# buses on the remainder of the route and you have a heap of extra bus-hours to spread around the network. I can't see that all these hours are being used in the new network, it seems like these hours have just been dropped and the new network created from the remainder of the existing network. This is pretty disappointing if that's the case.

Offline ajw373

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2018, 12:02:32 PM »
What I want to figure out is what's happening to the extra bus-kilometres/bus-hours saved by the light rail. Currently there are 20 red-rapid services arriving between 8 and 9am in the morning peak on an approximately 40 min journey. So that's over 13 bus-hours saved just there. Then include all the 5# and 3# buses on the remainder of the route and you have a heap of extra bus-hours to spread around the network. I can't see that all these hours are being used in the new network, it seems like these hours have just been dropped and the new network created from the remainder of the existing network. This is pretty disappointing if that's the case.

Without a detailed timetable how can you tell where bus hours are or arenít being used?

Though you do raise an interesting point that leads to the one things I donít like about the proposed bus routes. And that is the lack of Xpressos and if the rapids, the light rail in particular has enough capacity.

As you mention the red rapid has about 20 buses in one hour in the peak many that I see on northborne have the bus full sign up to be replaced by 10 light rail services. Plus some North Canberra buses will feed Dickson and onto light rail. Capacity wise probably needs 15 light rail carriage worth an hour to carry the same number of people or share the love and keep some express buses. The best answer would be for some of the suburbs in west Gungahlin like Casey, Taylor, Nicholas to have. a direct service via the Barton highway.

And yes I have had my day on the official reply website.

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #94 on: July 13, 2018, 01:12:38 PM »
Exactly what I've been wondering. There will be fewer School Services, no Xpressos, no buses to Hume or Fairbairn and 40 additional buses as well as no more "Red Rapid" bus services.

And yet there seems to be insufficient capacity for the major "Rapid" services in peak. Yes, there are additional services in new suburbs, but reduced services elsewhere.

How can that be? If there are more frequent feeder services but reduced capacity on Rapids, then it won't work.

Route 101. At a consultation at the Belconnen Library the facilitators said that route was a separate function and implied it would continue. But the Canberra Times yesterday reports (with routes 81 and 101 mixed up) otherwise. In or out?
Transport Canberra / TCCS Minister have had the opportunity to confirm or deny reports. Neither has occurred.

The main reason to abandon the service would be the low number of passengers using it. But if the route was changed and the hours reduced to where demand is at its highest, average passenger numbers will go up. Also it uses drivers which could be used elsewhere and requires 6 buses which occupy valuable depot space and workshop hours. As well, it doesn't fit into the "all buses must operate 7 days a week" model.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 01:41:14 PM by Barry Drive »

Offline Bus 503

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #95 on: July 13, 2018, 02:33:09 PM »
The frequencies of the 30 and 31 are every 20 minutes during peak hour in the new network. In previous networks like Network 14, 14.1 and 16, the frequencies were every 15 minutes (most of the time) to either the City or Belconnen (morning or afternoon). The cut-back in services is odd, mainly because I think there is more patronage from university students to the ANU and more passengers from Lawson.

By looking at my old timetables, I have counted seven services from Belconnen (Cohen Street) to the City starting from Cohen Street before 8:00am. In the current network, there are only four. This is quite a reduction.

I also don't feel the government was open about the fact that passengers would have to transfer at Dickson Interchange onto buses or light rail if catching the 30 or 31. However, I am unsure whether transferring will reduce or increase travel time because there are less stops and right of way on the light rail, but likely extra time with transferring between light rail and buses.

I believe that the best measure of success/failure for the new network will be whether it reduces passenger's travel times or increases travel times. Without timetables, it is very hard to see how travel times will change so is far too vague.

Offline Toyota Camry

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #96 on: July 13, 2018, 10:08:34 PM »
What I want to figure out is what's happening to the extra bus-kilometres/bus-hours saved by the light rail. Currently there are 20 red-rapid services arriving between 8 and 9am in the morning peak on an approximately 40 min journey. So that's over 13 bus-hours saved just there.
There has been an announcement that the new network will operate until either midnight or 10pm; respectfully for Monday to Saturday and for Sunday. If all suburban routes are running until midnight, that is a lot of extra kilometres & hours spent right there.

It would seem quite unusual, if full buses are being cut back; and services at 11:30pm that may often run completely empty are being introduced instead.

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #97 on: July 13, 2018, 10:17:24 PM »
Today I was driving on Coulter Drive at 6pm; I noticed an inbound 15 bus from Spence. It was bus 910; there was only one passenger onboard.

I do worry if there will be enough passengers from that area to justify the full time rapid service from next year; known as route R3.

Offline Northside

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2018, 11:09:13 PM »
Without a detailed timetable how can you tell where bus hours are or arenít being used?

Going by the estimated frequencies for each service (on the regional pages of the website). As mentioned, there are several services that have significantly reduced frequencies in peak and outside. Gungahin routes havenít had any increase in frequency (51/51 have both been halved outside of peak). Just one new route essentially and the only region without a suburban Rapid Route. Popular inner northern routes, ie the current 1, 2 and 7 have been decimated and weird detours added to either force transfers to the light rail or prevent passengers from using a bus service within 1-2kms of the light rail. Iím starting to wonder if there is a clause in the operators contract about forcing pax on to the light rail.

Quote
As you mention the red rapid has about 20 buses in one hour in the peak many that I see on northborne have the bus full sign up to be replaced by 10 light rail services. Plus some North Canberra buses will feed Dickson and onto light rail. Capacity wise probably needs 15 light rail carriage worth an hour to carry the same number of people or share the love and keep some express buses. The best answer would be for some of the suburbs in west Gungahlin like Casey, Taylor, Nicholas to have. a direct service via the Barton highway.

I think the howls on Canberra Times with people saying this is a white elephant and will never be used are kidding themselves. This has no where near the capacity it needs in peak. As for interpeak, Iíve noticed a huge increase in pax on the 200 on weekends now that it is every 15 mins, so I think people will be surprised how well it will be used. After all, there is a huge student population in the high density apartments all along the route. For all the Tuggeranong residents wondering why they wonít ever get a light rail line, thatís the reason ó Tuggers is all urban sprawl and hasnít near the required density for light rail.

Anyway, end of rant. A simpler way to increase capacity is to have fewer of the inner bus routes requiring a transfer at Dickson. Why doesnít the 50 between Dickson and Watson continue to the city along the 52 route? Why doesnít the 30 or 31 continue on to the city via the 51? Both have places where pax can transfer to a Dickson service on the R9. That would save time on transfer and with the routes having to negotiate the terribly congested east-west traverse from antil to moat.

All in all, I like the concept, itís just been executed so poorly and so underwhelmingly.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2019 - the proposal
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2018, 09:29:00 AM »
Well on the second of the consultations at the City Interchange of which I went to, the CEO of TC visited for a little while, and I discussed many things with him. This extended hours thing was one such subject. There seems to be a plan that late hours travel is one key thing they're working on, and although even now most services will have little to none passengers on board these, one of my points was "it's better to know that there's a bus there to take you home, rather than knowing that you're gonna be stranded". For those of us like myself who have only buses as a choice of accessibility (no taxi, no phone for uber, nothin'), travelling home from select areas is difficult.

Another issue is the connection times between rapids and suburban routes where they don't meet even by 2 or 3 minutes without your first connection being very early or the inconvenience of walking home many kilometres from a rapid due to a service home you need doesn't run late enough. I'm lucky enough to not have to worry too much about this living just under a K from the Wanniassa PnR stop, but cause of that walking distance I would rather a closer bus. At the moment I've been actively doing things at the German Club in Narrabundah late in the evenings, I must get the 6 to Woden that is suppose to come by at 9:50pm so I can be in Woden either for the 60S (10pm) if a few minutes early or the 64S (10:20pm) if on time or late. However these events I would rather stay right to the end for, but in doing so I would need to wait for the next 6, but it means missing all suburban connections to Kambah back home and getting an Intertown. Until recently I've been having to report the drivers cause they've been up to 7 minutes early which is bad planning on the times designers, but it is something that is manageable even though I wish there were more options. I would much prefer to get a 62 at around that time, but for some reason there is no later 62S at that time (and many others like that for a lot of other routes). However, someone did have to pay this unfortunate price the other day though. A woman walked up to the 64S (10:20pm) I boarded the other night asking to go to either Chisholm or Gilmore, and I knew the 66 or 67 go there, and noticing that the 67 on the other side of the Interchange had left just moments before, I thought there was another 66, but going over my timetable noticing there wasn't, and it left 40 minutes prior. Wrong place, wrong time. She was pretty much screwed unless she was lucky to pick up a taxi or something cause there was pretty much nothing else except walking home from Athllon or Tuggeranong which I seriously doubt.

The unfortunate things about late night services and the main reasons for the cuts is cause of the cost, but it's not like that should matter too much cause like what the CEO (I will not disclose him name unless it's allowed) agreed with me is, if ACTION/TC was privately run and didn't have the government support to pay for all this, it would've gone bankrupt over 50+ years ago. So what's the point in arguing if a few extra buses should run for those who (emphasis on the 'may') may need them at night. I have noticed quite often getting the last services at night on different runs, there's most often no one on them, including the rapids, but every now and again there's someone.

Quote from: Bus 400
the new network will be done within the current budget
Some would wonder how there's even a budget left after the Lightrail is finished.


On another note, I think the Fairburn, Campbell thing will be considered again cause many people who came by on the day I was there were concerned about it. I eves dropped one such person say "thousands of people work there" - obviously not of all them catch the bus, but maybe 5-10% of them do.