December 09, 2019, 02:36:28 pm

Network 2019 - the proposal

Started by vnguyen, October 21, 2017, 09:32:38 pm

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Barry Drive

This is a map of the proposed Rapid "network" (via Twitter).



I offer no comment on this proposal because this forum has no filter for abusive language.

Q

this is annoying because when it starts all the 300's expect for 300,318,319 are likely to be canceled....

another note will theses routes run the quickest possible way or divert around other streets e.g R5 on some of the roads that the current 63/163/71/171 go on

Sylvan Loves Buses

The only thing I would add is, where's the Belconnen to Tuggeranong and Tuggeranong to Airport via Monaro rapids?...


Quote from: Barry Drive on October 22, 2017, 12:31:37 pm
I offer no comment on this proposal because this forum has no filter for abusive language.

I can tell you detest the plan, I completely agree. :-X

Quote from: Q on October 22, 2017, 03:41:29 pmanother note will theses routes run the quickest possible way or divert around other streets

Probably the fastest 'streamlined' way. ACTION/TC have been really on the whole streamlined thing these past few years so it's likely that it would be that.

Busfanatic101

October 22, 2017, 04:25:00 pm #4 Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 03:56:21 pm by Barry Drive


Quote from: Q on October 22, 2017, 03:41:29 pm
this is annoying because when it starts all the 300's expect for 300,318,319 are likely to be canceled....

And 300, 318, and 319 as you know it won't exist either.


What's annoying is stage 2 light rail. The split of the blue rapid now is I have to say an alright move on their part - not good for commuters, not at all, but will I think ultimately be received better than cutting straight to 2 changeovers and an extended Woden-civic trip from the blue rapid at the commencement of stage 2. They've gotta take things away gradually, and they might just get away with it, if they continue to put in this level of thought.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on October 22, 2017, 03:44:05 pm
where's the ... Tuggeranong to Airport via Monaro rapids?...

Possibly the only positive thing I can say about this proposal is reducing the number of Airport "rapids" to one every 15 minutes rather than two. No detail about how it will be achieved and what will happen to BBP & FBP services.

Now they just need to cull a few more Rapids and redirect the resources to providing decent suburban services.

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Sylvan Loves Buses

Now that I think about it, I don't think airport rapids would be as idea, more like half or hourly would be more suitable.
I have suggested on a number of occasions to ACTION about an all-day 705 though (preferably without the time wasting weston detour) - a 20/30 minute service for that would be great i would imagine. Faster travel than the intertowns between the two main points of Canberra. Forgot to mention, Tug or Woden to Gungahlin too.

Barry Drive

Consider this: under this plan there will be a Rapid bus from City direct to Belconnen, Gungahlin, Woden, Airport and Molonglo. But not Tuggeranong.

Priorities?

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Sylvan Loves Buses

Well the past few networks have proven to me how little care there is for Tuggeranong Valley, so I should probably expect that.

Busfanatic101

And what need is there for a Civic-Tuggeranong direct rapid? Tuggeranong town centre being at the far edge of the district means there's inevitably less demand through Tuggeranong than other town centres, and the majority of Tuggeranong residents commuting from civic will change over at Woden (as long as there are buses scheduled at that time).

For those that do go to Tuggeranong, going via Woden does make sense, it's not far off and doesn't extend the trip time significantly, while catering for much higher demand.


A Tuggeranong-Belconnen rapid would be of greater priority than a direct Tuggeranong-City rapid.

King of Buses

Looks like we're (somehow) in for a 7 day network next year...

Quote from: PTCBR Public Transport Association of Canberra
Transport Minister Meegan Fitzharris MLA just announced a seven day bus network in 2018, in the Assembly 👍


https://www.facebook.com/groups/PublicTransportAssociationOfCanberraPTCBR/permalink/1886619891349383/

Not sure how they plan on getting that to work with all these Rapid routes and the current operational setup for weekends... but we'll see.

Busnerd

I would asssume they mean having the same routes 7 days.

Obviously the former xpresso's and peak express services wouldn't operate but it would finally mean the end of those horrible loops after 12 years of them running.

Busfanatic101

My initial impression was that they were just referring to rapids being 7-days...

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Busnerd on October 26, 2017, 04:38:53 pm
but it would finally mean the end of those horrible loops after 12 years of them running.


Gawd yes, those even numbered on even hours/odd numbered on odd hours loops services are the worst!


Sylvan Loves Buses

April 20, 2018, 03:02:05 pm #15 Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 03:22:58 pm by Barry Drive
QuoteCanberrans say they'll walk farther for faster, more frequent buses


WTAF, I can't believe they're serious....

Barry Drive

April 20, 2018, 03:30:37 pm #16 Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 04:01:45 pm by Barry Drive
I may have more to say later, but the previous announcement of 15 minute rapids on weekends has been downgraded to 30 minutes.



The article in CT says the "seven day network" is still proposed, but this is not supported by any mention on the social media channels.

Time will tell.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on April 20, 2018, 03:02:05 pm
What the actual fuck, I can't believe they're serious....

It's perfectly reasonable.
For example, if my memory serves me right, when we stayed at Ashmore on the Gold Coast, we had a bus stop 500m away with hourly services, which were unreliable when we did catch it, being 13 minutes late. (overall, surfside buslines buses were quite bad with on-time running and service cancellations, with services significantly better here).
We had another bus stop 1km away with half-hourly bus services. We did catch that one a few times.
For the vast majority of the time, we walked 1.9kms to the light rail stop, where services were every 8 minutes and always reliable.
The is nothing more frustrating than only being able to arrive at a destination 30 mins early or late than you need to be - people see that as a waste of time, as you're there with nothing to do when you could have spent another 20 minutes at home. On the other hand, if you can arrive when you need to arrive, even if it means your trip taking a bit longer, it isn't percieved as a waste of time. All that time you're either walking or on the bus, being productive. If it comes to it, they can always tout the health benefits of walking further to the bus stop.


I guess one thing that I find interesting is that they had the exact same concept with the proposed Network 14 overhaul, which was scrapped after a massive outcry. Despite our attitude that we'd be willing to walk further for more frequent services, no one wants their stop to be the one that gets cut. Likewise, perhaps many of us lack the confidence that frequent services will really be delivered at a slightly further walk when your stop gets cut.


And the saddest thing about all this is that we have to make a comprimise between coverage or frequency and that we're happy to do so because that is the best that we as a population has come to expect from past and current public transport experiences.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Oh I love the idea of a 7 day timetable again, but what I've always believed in for a bus service esp like one the size of Canberra's, is that you should have a mixture of 'convenient'/flexible ANDdirect services, not just 'streamlined' like the disastrous network '12 removing an unspeakable number of bus stops from one network to the next (specifically 40 in the Wanniassa area).

It's rather ironic actually, cause for one of those changes, the route 80 in Fyshwick had the eastern part of the route taken out to make it more 'streamlined', and one of those bus stops sits right against the Mobility Matters shop (forcing those less able to walk an additional 300-350 meters both ways to acquire mobility aiding accessories), but of course TC/ACTION don't care for the elderly/disabled travellers who still catch the local services as much as their 'more important' customers so I guess it makes sense that they're just gonna destroy everything cause they obviously enjoy watching those less able to suffer...


Quote from: Busfanatic101
The is nothing more frustrating than only being able to arrive at a destination 30 mins early or late than you need to be - people see that as a waste of time

I thought with mobile phones now days that wasn't a problem... jk

No of course I understand that, but even with the routes like the current 6 that is every 15 minutes (30 at night) - if you've got the perfect connection, it can be screwed over so much if the driver is 5 minutes early or late.
Although it is convenient that it is slightly faster to get from location to location, it's still hell trying to walk to places that still exist that people go to regularly that still have bus stops, but aren't serviced anymore cause of ignorant network designers.

Bus 400

What's the funniest part of the survey results is that a majority of people don't mind walking further for a quick bus service. While the suburb that had the highest respnders was Moncreiff (https://yoursay.act.gov.au/rapid-network-2018)

Plus the top 2 destinations are City & Civic. Surprised Woden, Phillip, Tuggeranong, Greenway weren't the next 4 options.

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Barry Drive

April 21, 2018, 04:39:01 pm #20 Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 09:18:22 pm by Barry Drive
I have no problem with more frequent services. All suburban routes should be returned to 30 minute day time frequencies, and the 30 minute frequency should continue until 8pm.

I have no problem with faster journeys - if that were to mean services to outer suburbs (such as Dunlop and Duffy) travel through fewer suburbs to the Town Centre. Although I doubt that's what they mean by it.

But as for "straightening out routes", this can't be done since our roads were intentionally designed to not follow a grid pattern. And "fewer routes running more often" contradicts faster journeys. The best way to provide faster (more direct) journeys is to have more routes, not fewer.

So, what next? Where is the fat in the current suburban route network? I can't think of many areas which would result in longer walking distances but faster journeys (not significantly faster anyway). But here's a few possibilities:


  • Bingley Cres, Fraser (just run Daley Cr)

  • Macrossan Cres, Latham

  • consolidate services to Higgins

  • Bruce - Fern Hill & CIT

  • Cossington Smith Cr, Lyneham

  • consolidate Lyneham Shops services

  • streamline Route 7 equivalent through Braddon

  • reduce service to Duntroon & ADFA - will depend on what happens with Route 11

  • Livingston Av, Kambah

  • run only one side of Newman-Morris Cct, Oxley

  • Bugden Av, Gowrie

  • Jim Pike / Callaway, Gordon


Have I missed any?

Also, the Media Release mentions "planning [is] underway to build a better seven-day network". Which doesn't mean it will be delivered in 2018.

King of Buses

While there are many places where services could/should be made more direct, I'm not convinced streamlining every route where possible is quite the right way to go, as you'll lose patronage in areas where people have to go further to catch buses, regardless of how frequent you run services as people will begin to find it more convenient to drive or find a different way to their destination. Elderly patrons may also find it difficult to reach services and will therefore be placed in a difficult situation due to being less mobile.

As Barry Drive said, most circumstances where routes would/could be cut from wouldn't improve travel times that much.

The main issue I see is that there is a considerable amount of unnecessary route duplication in the current network, or duplication that doesn't work given poor route timings and spacing. Fix that, or improve it in cases where duplication is unavoidable, and you're making a step in the right direction. While I don't totally agree with the Rapid Network plan, it should hopefully help reduce some duplication in some areas, provided services terminate and connect in along these Rapid corridors, rather than duplicating them for significant portions, where possible.

Bringing back 30 min (or better) day time frequencies for all suburban services would definitely be an improvement (and a big boost which would make PT more appealing), and it could possibly be achieved by increasing the number of through shifts and reducing the number of broken shifts (which does mean more shifts as a whole, yes, but more shifts operating through the middle of the day, too). But, my point being, it might be possible with roughly the same number of drivers and the current fleet (plus the next 40 buses, which will help). Once Woden Depot is operational there should be no excuse for services to operate hourly instead of every 30 mins (or better) during off peak on weekdays.

Bus 400

If the plan is to run on demand services, you could cut Lyons out of the current 21/22. Or even cut the 88 to on demand.

On even have one bus route go through Bonython & add bus stops on Drakeford Dr.



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Sylvan Loves Buses

@KoB Agreed, and much better put.

If anything, I hope at some point they give us back the hour later services we had, cause it's difficult enjoying life outside of work/school with friends (if you have any), parties, movies, conventions, graduations, events, etc without being forced to leave early or get a lift/taxi/uber to get home at a time when buses use to run - more specifically the suburban routes as the blue rapids somewhat still hold that title.

Quote from: King of BusesThe main issue I see is... route duplication in the current network... poor route timings and spacing. Fix that

For someone who use to ride bike living in the northern Tuggeranong area with much choice this had become quite an annoyance although there was quite a choice. Looking at this from Network '14 (with a slight improvement to the 64 in 2015, and combining 163 to the mayhem in 2015).

For someone like myself who would be trying to get home after evening classes nearly everyday from CIT for the past couple of years, and without getting the frustration of having to bore myself with a 300 every time and riding/walking more than a kilometre to get home, I would often find myself choosing between buses. Of course it was more interesting for me with my bike cause I had a choice of either Scania this, MAN that, and "oh look a Renault yes please!", but for someone in need of a bus to get home at these times (and it was just as bad from Tuggeranong too including 63/71 due to infrequency of no 163/171 from T) even with a possible walk from another route that is somewhat not too distant, this would be a real pain in the butt esp if the person is running late, is less able to between platforms cause of drivers enjoying their evening meal breaks and leaving at the exact same time together 10 minutes later, or even if the driver/bus never turns up - forcing a possible hour wait, or sorry walk home several kilomters from a 300...

Since 2014, the stupidness of multiple routes going mostly the same way for 20-40% of their route at the same time (for Tuggeranong residents) has since been improved somewhat for network '17, but it still lacks later services and better choices.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Barry Drive on April 21, 2018, 04:39:01 pm
So, what next? Where is the fat in the current suburban route network? I can't think of many areas which would result in longer walking distances but faster journeys (not significantly faster anyway). But here's a few possibilities:

       
  • Bingley Cres, Fraser (just run Daley Cr)

  •    
  • Macrossan Cres, Latham

  •    
  • consolidate services to Higgins

  •    
  • Bruce - Fern Hill & CIT

  •    
  • Cossington Smith Cr, Lyneham

  •    
  • consolidate Lyneham Shops services

  •    
  • streamline Route 7 equivalent through Braddon

  •    
  • reduce service to Duntroon & ADFA - will depend on what happens with Route 11

  •    
  • Livingston Av, Kambah

  •    
  • run only one side of Newman-Morris Cct, Oxley

  •    
  • Bugden Av, Gowrie

  •    
  • Jim Pike / Callaway, Gordon

Have I missed any?
Other possibilities may include:

       
  • Renmark/Eucumbene (Duffy, 25)

  •    
  • Louisa Lawson (Gilmore, 67)

  •    
  • Templestowe Ave, (Conder, 19/319)

  •    
  • Goreen/Euree St, (Campbell, 9)

  •    
  • Palmer St (Garran, 3)

  •    
  • Moonlight Av (Gungahlin, 58

  •    
  • Throsell/Dunstan (Curtin, 2) - could be complemented by a stop on the now duplicated Cotter Rd on 182 and xpressos near underpass (-35.315554, 149.077254)


Some routes are also highly redundant, and could be eliminated with a slight tweaking of existing routes, which in theory could then double the frequency of the retained route

       
  • 66 - slight alteration of 65 (add 2 mins) through chisholm.

  •    
  • Merge 63 and 64 - follow 64 through Wanniassa (eliminate Kambah), replace charlston with Barraclough, Cockcroft

  •    
  • Consolidate routes 9, 10 and 11 into two routes

  •    
  • etc. etc.


King of Buses

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on April 22, 2018, 06:41:46 pm
   
  • Templestowe Ave, (Conder, 19/319)



*angry react*  >:(

What they cut will come down to the amount of patronage, too. Templestowe has quite a bit of patronage, plus it's quite a distance (uphill) from/to Tom Roberts/the one stop that is in use Jane Sutherland/Paperbark to/from the top section of Conder - particularly the top of Eaglemont Retreat. What they COULD streamline is to operate via Humphrey St, in lieu of Jane Sutherland/Tom Roberts/Templestowe. You'd only gain 1 minute at most from that, though. I do not believe Humphrey St is approved for 14.5m buses, however (but it probably could be).

The other thing to bear in mind is that some routes/streets might seem pointless and targets to be cut, but many of those are the only way to get to other streets which need to be serviced to allow access to suburban shops, schools, or the other facilities.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: King of Buses on April 22, 2018, 09:15:37 pm
*angry react*  >:(

That's what they all say  :P ;) ::)  "oh no not my street, so much patronage, so far from the alternative bus stop"...


Point taken  ;D


Barry Drive

Yeah, the challenge is to remove "indirect" running which has little patronage and which can deliver more efficient services.

Some loop streets like Louisa Lawson and Templestowe are too significant to cut (IMO). Whereas Jim Pike / Callaway is an easy target, as is Livingston.

Goreen / Euree in Reid, while lowly patronised wouldn't achieve much savings if the 9 was redirected to run along Currong. (Also there's no frequent or rapid service nearby.)

I agree about the idea to consolidate 9 10 & 11 into 2 routes. I'm curious though as to where the Airport rapid service will terminate.

Bus 400

So a bit more information has been noted in the Legislative Assembly.

The plan is for rapid buses to run until midnight Monday to Saturday nights & 22:30 on Sunday night.

The light rail is to run til 22:30 Sunday to Thursday & 1am Friday & Saturday nights.

If you have a spare 30 odd minutes or more than 3 hours or are having trouble sleeping, you watch it all at http://aod.parliament.act.gov.au/A70232

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Busfanatic101

June 08, 2018, 01:16:23 am #29 Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 10:05:01 am by Barry Drive
Meegan Fitzharris has replied to a comment on facebook stating "new bus network out for consultation this month."

Sylvan Loves Buses

Where is this? I just had a look through TC's and her FB page, and I didn't see anything.

Buzz Killington

It's on the second most recent post on her page (shared TC post about the wrapped trams)

Barry Drive

June 18, 2018, 02:06:08 pm #32 Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 10:37:54 am by Barry Drive
Some details of the new network (herein after known as "Network 19") have been released.

Canberra Times article

Proposed Rapids have been changed as follows:
R1 Gungahlin to City (Tram)
R2 Fraser / Dunlop to COC via Belconnen, City & Barton
R3 Spence to Airport via Belconnen & City
R4 Lanyon to City via Tuggeranong & Woden
R5 Lanyon to City via Calwell, Erindale, Woden, Barton & Russell
R6 Weston to City via Woden, Manuka, Kingston & Barton
R7 Weston to City via Cotter Road
R8 Belconnen to Gungahlin
R9 Belconnen to Watson via Bruce & Dickson
R10 Molonglo to City via Cotter Road



All Xpressos to be removed.

Busfanatic101

I note 101 also seems to have disappeared, along with 'route 3' through ANU.
Also a loop service from Cooleman Court to connect to a rapid for Woden commuters. And Kambah services that travel via Cooleman Court to Woden, providing a Tuggeranong to Weston Creek connection. Some similarities to my network proposal from a few months back 😄

vnguyen

I've also noticed that tourist rouet 81 is missing from the map.

Busfanatic101


Bus 400

As have been said by ANU staff, the current bus network doesn't work for them & the over full carparks prove that. No bus service isn't going to improve that.

There are a couple of weird short routes such as 65 from Coolemon Court to Chapman & a couple of others.

No idea why the Kambah runs swap sides & go via Coolemon Court, but both have been extended which kinda goes against the more direct routes that's being swung around. Surprise that don't terminate at Weston & force change to the rapids like most people will.

Busnerd

Assume the via Cooleman Court thing is to *possibly* give them a "Direct" way to get to Tuggeranong without going via Woden, the old 60/62 swapping sides is weird, but again, I guess it's a way to connect both sides of the suburb as both routes never really went near each other, so at least someone wanting to get to the other side of Kambah kind of can now.

Will be interesting to see what the timetables are like when released.

Toyota Camry

In my opinion, there will be a lot of people that will switch to driving, either to a park and ride or the whole way to Civic, with the loss of Xpresso services; many of the public servants using Xpressos will not be interested in taking a local bus to a bus station then changing buses when it takes 20 minutes longer than their previous direct service; or 30 minutes longer than driving.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on June 18, 2018, 10:41:43 pm
In my opinion, there will be a lot of people that will switch to driving, either to a park and ride or the whole way to Civic, with the loss of Xpresso services; many of the public servants using Xpressos will not be interested in taking a local bus to a bus station then changing buses when it takes 20 minutes longer than their previous direct service; or 30 minutes longer than driving.

Any examples of where it might take 20 minutes extra due to the loss of an Xpresso?


From my preliminary look at the network, it seems workable and has the right idea, although not entirely convinced with all the frequency projections of the rapid routes, and its final success would be highly dependent on the frequency of the local services (which seem generally better done although there are some odd routes here and there). My current commute scenarios would pretty much all face some delay (or remain the same) from the largely removed redundancies of the current network, but I can think of many other previously difficult commute scenarios that would be much easier and believe this is a step in the right direction that will be good in the long run as the capacity of the network and fleet are increased. I'm sure there'll be plenty of backlash though... looking forward to seeing the comments on the facebook posts.




Snorzac

Example of a 20min time loss is City to Kippax, I live on the corner of Southern Cross and Florey Dr, 743 the other night left 12 min after the 313 and arrived 8min before it at the stop I use (before it goes into Kippax)

Bus 400

Youndo have people from Gold Creek/Nicholls who want to go to Belconnen or people that work in Mitchell & want to go to the City will now be forced to go into Gungahlin in the opposite direction & change.

At the moment just many people head into Gungahlin as those that leave  early in the morning, light rail & bus cuts won't encourage them ono buses.

The best comment I've heard from multiple people is "Canberra's bus system doesn't work" & "changes to the network make it easier to drive". This'll never change & patronge numbers will go up with forced transfers, the buses will still be empty outside peak & carparks will still be full all day.
How many people from Denman Prospect want to go to the Citt at 09:15, 9:30 & 09:45 & same goes for people from Cooleman Court?  Probably 4 people each. While it has been noted all ready full buses are being cut in the Belconnen to City corridor & more people are being forced into this corridor.

I  think my rant is over for now, now to put forward some changes.

Toyota Camry

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on June 18, 2018, 11:07:26 pm
Any examples of where it might take 20 minutes extra due to the loss of an Xpresso?

From Civic to Hawker Shops in the afternoon, there are three current options;

Route 744 leaves 5:20pm, arrives Springvale Drive & Belconnen Way (behind the shops) at 5:36pm

Route 717 leaves 5:14pm, arrives Hawker Shops 5:38pm

Route 313 leaves at 5:13pm, 7 minutes to change buses at Westfield Bus Station between 5:38pm until Route 17 leaves at 5:45pm, arrives Hawker Shops at 5:55pm

As the latter journey, but with new route numbers will be the only journey possible in the new network; how many commuters will give up a 16 minute trip for a 42 minute one?

In this instance, it is also possible that the journey could become a 62 minute one; this is likely if the rapid service is delayed and the connection is missed. For a regular commuter; this may occur once every two or three weeks.

Sylvan Loves Buses

From the early post yesterday I would've posted this but couldn't due to reasons...

QuoteAll Xpressos to be removed.


Well that will suck. No more direct access from Tuggeranong straight to Belconnen (and vice versa) when needed, and there will have to be a bus exchange just to get from Tuggeranong/Woden to Belconnen? Geez, it's like 2008 all over again but affecting the necessary routes instead of the alternative...

______________________________
I have now returned to view your discussions, plus properly looked at the proposed map and I can say.

For starters, going from the small images on the Canberra Times' article, wtf is going on for Kambah, although I love the idea that we'd finally get a service direct to Weston, the fact that neither of them will be direct to Woden anymore (supposedly) and they swap sides of Kambah several times is dumb and imo unnecessary, esp given that there's no sign of a bus stop being put in for the second cross-over and they're fine as they are now and have been for the past 20 years.

Looking over the full map just now, I'm starting to get TRIGGERED by many things:
  • Firstly, half of the routes look to be loop services for south Canberra, and if they're as bad as they are now, we're really in the sh*ter.

  • A whole new revamp of the route numbers, although I thought about it during the day, I guess it's been 20 years since the last one, it's still gonna be confusing and hard to get use to for quite some time.

  • The limit of access to areas such as Hume, Phillip, Mitchell (again) from the city, other places from interchanges, Symonston, the other parts of Kambah for those less able and just want to get to Woden the same ways they do now, most of Wanniassa again just like 2008, Acton, tourist locations, and many more that I could go on about, but I won't.... - I'll complain about that to someone when they get the second consultation thing up.

  • Oh and the fact that they're favouring Belconnen and Gungahlin for the umpteenth time again, looks great up there... They love Belconnen and Gungahlin, they don't give a rat's *** about the rest of us...

Oh wait, Gungahlin has loop services too... whoop tee do for them...
  • They're introducing letters on the displays now, can't we just have single numbered loop routes instead of trying to figure out if the 19 goes on the odd numbered hour the anticlockwise way, and the 20 on the even numbered hour going clockwise?... Don't answer that...


GEEEZ....... **** me...

Barry Drive

June 19, 2018, 11:15:20 am #44 Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 12:50:46 pm by Barry Drive
So to the predictions:

Quote from: Barry Drive on April 21, 2018, 04:39:01 pm
But here's a few possibilities:



  • Bingley Cres, Fraser (just run Daley Cr) [NO]

  • Macrossan Cres, Latham [YES]

  • consolidate services to Higgins [YES]

  • Bruce - Fern Hill & CIT [YES*]

  • Cossington Smith Cr, Lyneham [NO]

  • consolidate Lyneham Shops services [YES*]

  • streamline Route 7 equivalent through Braddon [YES*]

  • reduce service to Duntroon & ADFA - will depend on what happens with Route 11 [NO]

  • Livingston Av, Kambah [YES]

  • run only one side of Newman-Morris Cct, Oxley [YES]

  • Bugden Av, Gowrie [NO]

  • Jim Pike / Callaway, Gordon [NO]


* Yes, but that wasn't what I meant

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on April 22, 2018, 06:41:46 pm
Other possibilities may include:


       
  • Renmark/Eucumbene (Duffy, 25) [NO]

  •    
  • Louisa Lawson (Gilmore, 67) [NO]

  •    
  • Templestowe Ave, (Conder, 19/319) [NO]

  •    
  • Goreen/Euree St, (Campbell, 9) [yes*]

  •    
  • Palmer St (Garran, 3) [YES]

  •    
  • Moonlight Av (Gungahlin, 58) [YES]

  •    
  • Throsell/Dunstan (Curtin, 2) [NO]


* Half yes

Going through the map, they've added (or re-opened) terminuses at:
  • Casey Shops

  • Fraser East

  • Watson

  • Southlands, Mawson

  • Chisholm Shops

  • Calwell Shops

  • and will need a Bus Station at Weston



And closed terminuses at:
  • Fairbairn Park

  • Kingston Railway

  • Lithgow St, Fyshwick

  • AMC, Hume

  • Farrer

  • Gordon


Quote from: Busfanatic101 on June 18, 2018, 03:41:08 pm
I note 101 also seems to have disappeared, along with 'route 3' through ANU.
This despite the minister claiming the route as a success.

Last time they did public consultation, they re-instated services to Moonlight Av, Fawkner St and the Railway Station (correct me if I'm wrong on that one) as well as the 732. Why have they not learned from that?

vnguyen

I'm a missing something here or is R10 going to be a rapid loop service from the city? I don't see any terminus at a Denman Prospect.

vnguyen

Quote from: vnguyen on June 19, 2018, 12:17:14 pm
I'm a missing something here or is R10 going to be a rapid loop service from the city? I don't see any terminus at a Denman Prospect.


It was be much easier to combine R9 and R10 together and make R10 a Tuggeranong to Belcomen rapid via the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Barry Drive

Quote from: vnguyen on June 19, 2018, 12:17:14 pm
I'm a missing something here or is R10 going to be a rapid loop service from the city? I don't see any terminus at a Denman Prospect.
I don't think you have missed it, although I did. It makes sense to be an out and back loop, although that will mess with NXTBUS. I do like the idea of splitting the old 182 into two routes, even if it does remove a more direct service to Weston and Woden.

I've also noticed that R10 is listed as 30 minutes off peak and hourly at evenings, so it doesn't really qualify as "Rapid" (or "Frequent") anyway. Perhaps it should be called "10".

Transport Canberra have (tried to) justify the removal of all Xpressos as follows:

Quote from: Transport Canberra Facebook comment
Canberrans have told us that they prefer more frequent, flexible and reliable journeys. In order to provide higher frequency on local and Rapid Routes, all Xpresso routes will be discontinued in the new network. This will make travel to town centres and other key locations more frequent, where connections can be made to the Rapid Network.

By providing an all-day network instead of a peak focused network, the same journey can be made throughout the day. If you take public transport to work at 8am and need to get home earlier than usual, you can make that same journey home at any time. It means you will not have to rely on a single bus service to make your journey, with more options available across the day.

Many of Canberra's Park and Ride facilities will also be serviced by frequent all day bus services giving you more flexible travel choices

We would encourage you to provide feedback through the Your Say page to assist with the planning of the New Network. TC

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Bus 400 on June 18, 2018, 11:39:33 pm
Youndo have people from Gold Creek/Nicholls who want to go to Belconnen or people that work in Mitchell & want to go to the City will now be forced to go into Gungahlin in the opposite direction & change.

How many people from Denman Prospect want to go to the Citt at 09:15, 9:30 & 09:45 & same goes for people from Cooleman Court?  Probably 4 people each. While it has been noted all ready full buses are being cut in the Belconnen to City corridor & more people are being forced into this corridor.

I think my rant is over for now, now to put forward some changes.




Gold Creek and Nicholls would be ok if they put in a changeover on Gundaroo Dr.
While the new Ashley Dr stops are shown, it clearly does not reflect the final situation in regards to stops - for example, they aren't going to have a dozen one-way stops in Bonner and Amaroo on a 2-way loop as depicted.
The same *should* apply to Kambah with an additional stop on their crossover.


Weston Creek/Molonglo Rapids are a bit dodgy, perhaps the 71 could go to belco rather than Woden since it goes through Cooleman Court anyway, and scrap R10, who can transfer to R7 or 66/67. This would create a connection to belco for Tuggeranong, Weston Creek, and Molonglo without making anything really worse off than what is proposed.








King of Buses

Quote from: Barry Drive on June 19, 2018, 11:15:20 am
Last time they did public consultation, they re-instated services to Moonlight Av, Fawkner St and the Railway Station (correct me if I'm wrong on that one) as well as the 732. Why have they not learned from that?


And Farrer Terminus, I seem to recall.

IMO, Moonlight Ave would be fine if there was a stop on the R1 at Wizard St, but there isn't, so I'd probably send the 21/22 from Gecko Way straight across Anthony Rolfe Ave all the way down to Gozzard St (or, once Ernest Cavanagh goes through to Kate Crace, the service could use Kate Crace then Ernest Cavanagh and go into Gungahlin Interchange that way). A set of stops on Mapleton Ave could also prove helpful as a replacement for the Moonlight Ave service, although I'd prefer that that section was serviced by the 21/22 rather than the 18. I reckon that you could get the 21/22 to criss cross Flemington Rd three times (at Mapleton, Nullarbor and Well Station), make the 18 essentially the same as the current 57 to Mitchell, and then run the 18 only during daylight hours (is there really a need for buses to Mitchell in the evening? There is that section of Hoskins St to consider I suppose, but the 21 could use Oodgeroo and Hoskins (22 can't, thanks to the left in left out at the Gungahlin Dr end of Oodgeroo), and maybe a set of stops on Well Station Dr near Hoskins St would work, too. Though, reducing the 18s hours of operation might go against their philosophy of every route operating all the time (if they resurrect some Xpressos, there isn't any reason they could do this sort of thing and make it a daytime and peak only service).

The 52 IMO doesn't need to go to the CBR Centre stop, nor duplicate the 53 to Limestone Ave. I feel it should use Mort, Girrahween, Torrens and Ipima despite most of this region being within easy reach of the R1. It is only supposedly an hourly service off peak, so that shouldn't matter so much if it went through there.

I'm not certain what they plan on doing with route 56, as I don't think it needs to go to Fyshwick at all hours of the day. Perhaps it could terminate at Narrabundah Terminus or the Railway Station after 1900 or something? The R2 can continue to COC at all hours to service the Canberra Ave corridor if need be. Though it could probably get away with using the Railway Station as a terminus, too. While on the topic of the 56, I'm not sure why it needs to go to Russell (or Kingston, really, given connections at Manuka), so possibly it could use Canberra Ave, then National Cct, like the old 6, then possibly to Parliament House (Federation Mall) and down Commonwealth Ave from up there?

With the 732, even if that doesn't come back as an Xpresso, the 58 could go from Strickland Cres straight to the City, which would allow a direct City to Deakin service too, to make up for the R5 being removed from this section after it was originally proposed to service this area. A new 59 could pretty much follow the current 1 between Woden and the City for Yarralumla, except via the same route as the new 57 in Parkes after Parliament House. The lack of anywhere to really connect for services to Barton on the 57/58 is odd though (other than around the corner on State Circle from the Melbourne Ave stops, which isn't really that practical for most I'd imagine). Unsure how to improve this without improving the stop setup there. If the 56 was modified to service Parliament House rerouting the 57/58 down National Cct would work, but that would increase travel time more on the 58 - wouldn't make much difference to the new 57 over the current 3 though.

The loss of Belconnen to Nicholls/Federaton Square/Casey area is understandable, but I feel the 23/24 loop isn't quite the right way to replace it. There isn't anywhere on Gundaroo Dr for anyone to connect to the R8 at present is my main problem, so maybe for that just goes to Crace. perhaps maybe going Grampians, Nudurr, Gundaroo, Abena, Redruth, Langtree, Galore, Abena, Gundaroo, Nudurr, Grampians from/to Gungahlin could work, allowing connections to the R8 on Gundaroo Dr, but it would slightly increase time to Gungahlin, I suppose (depending on where in Crace you were, I suppose).
As for Federation Square and Ngunnawal, I'd suggest a Belconnen - Fed Sq - Casey - Horse Park - Moncrieff - Mirrabei Dr service, meaning the 23/24 could becoming a Casey to Gungahlin service that has Belconnen connections at Casey or Gungahlin.
This also would allow the 25/26 to become Gungahlin to Taylor only (via Amaroo), connecting at Moncrieff for service to Casey or Belconnen. The 27 could be rerouted via Gungahlin Dr past John Paul CLG instead on the weird thing it does presumably just to service Ngunnwal Shops (perhaps it should not come from the Mirrabei Dr end, but rather from Gungahlin Dr, then Amagula, Gurrang, Wanganeen, Unaipon, Burramurra, Jabanungga, Wanganeen, Gungahlin Dr to Casey. The 28 could then go via Unaipon and Burramurra to the top part of Casey (I don't think that run would need to go via Ngunnawal shops, just Ngunnawal PS).

I reckon there are ways to make the 19/20 and 25/26 work better in Amaroo than what they've got too. Switching the 25/26 to service Burdekin and Mirrabei, with the 19/20 doing Horse Park and Katherine could improve those routes. From Amaroo Shops the 19/20 could even go straight across to Roden Cutler, Essie Coffey, Henry Williams, Mabo to Bonner Shops, William Cooper, Jessie, then through Forde as proposed - would improve Bonner coverage, improve the run time, only disadvantaging 2 sets of stops in Forde (slightly).

The 41/42 in the Melba area seems a bit funny to me too. I'd send the 42 via Copland rather than Ginninderra, then back down Alpen and Alfred Hill to Kingsford Smith, though this wouldn't service Melba Shops. Sending the 41 down Chinner Cres could work as a way to service that. The 41 could easily service the other side of Shakespeare Cres, too.

One of my main dislikes though is the R2 going between Kippax and Fraser, and the R3 between Belconnen and Spence - these could easily be suburban services that connect into these Rapids at Kippax or Belconnnen. After all, what makes Macgregor, Dunlop, Fraser, Spence and part of Florey so special that they deserve a direct and frequent Rapid bus to the City, while every other Belconnen suburb (and almost every other suburb in Canberra) needs to change at a nearby group or town centre?

I'm glad to see that Annabelle View will be used in Coombs, too. Never understood why they didn't do that in the first place. Still unsure why Macfarlane Burnet on the 44 doesn't have a service all the way around, then into the older section of Macgregor via Cannan Cres, especially as it would connect with the R2 at Macgregor shops if timed right.

Also glad Templestowe Ave will continue to be serviced, but I think the Lanyon to Tuggeranong section of the 80 needs some work - perhaps it should go via either North Gordon and Bonython (rather than the 81, given Conder/Banks pax can change at Lanyon), with the 81 going direct via Woodcock. Alternatively, leave the 81 as shown and send the 80 via Isabella Plains, shortening the 79 (this would affect school services to Mackillop CLG (Isabella Plains) though.

Quote from: vnguyen on June 19, 2018, 12:24:32 pm
It was be much easier to combine R9 and R10 together and make R10 a Tuggeranong to Belcomen rapid via the Tuggeranong Parkway.


The R9 wouldn't make sense to combine, not the R10, as that would make a Watson to Belconnen and a Denman Prospect to City service a Watson to City via Belconnen and Molonglo service?

I do imagine the R10 will eventually continue to Belconnen though via the FRC. Either that or it will terminate at Molonglo Town Centre, and the R8 will be extended to Molonglo and ideally Cooleman Court the Tuggeranong. In the meantime, I reckon the R7 could be extended to Tuggeranong via Namatjira Dr, and the 70/71 remain the same or similar to existing routes 60/62, with connections on Sulwood Dr and Drakeford Dr for travel to Cooleman Court (and the City, even). The R10 and 66/67 also need to take into account servicing Denman Village Shops, too, which I believe should be open when this network commences.

The loss of Xpressos seems to be the biggest problem though, and while I can see why a lot of them would be removed (owing to duplication, and trying to boost boarding figures), I think some new peak only direct routes could be introduced as new Xpressos. These don't necessarily need to operate through suburbia, but they need to connect to suburban routes to allow a trip to the City with only one transfer maximum.
I was considering maybe suggesting a Kippax to City route (could be numbered XR2?) that would be essentially the current 743, but from Kippax (perhaps every 10 mins is overkill, but every 20 with a full STAG or artic allocation might be enough).
An XR4 (or something) could run from Lanyon to the City directly, too, perhaps deviating via Tuggeranong as well (every 20 mins should be plenty on this one).
A 705 and 749 replacement would be useful too, ideally with improved frequency and operating hours, and perhaps a trial of Gungahlin to Woden or Tuggeranong Xpressos, too, allowing a direct link between all Town Centres in peak?

I feel a Tuggeranong - Chisholm - Hume - COC - Newcastle St (Fyshwick) - Airport service could be useful too, but I'm not sure how it'd work in terms of whether it'd just be a peak service (allowing connections at COC to the R2, and to the R3 at CBR Airport), or what. A Woden - Symonston - Hume Xpresso be enough though.

That's not everything I have to say about this proposal, but that's all I feel like saying at the moment. Overall, I'm not against a fair amount of the route structure, there are just ways to improve a lot of it still - particularly with extra options in peak. I am yet to actually provide TC with feedback other than a few small things, so any feedback on my suggestions is welcome.

vnguyen

Quote from: King of Buses on June 19, 2018, 02:26:37 pm
The R9 wouldn't make sense to combine, not the R10, as that would make a Watson to Belconnen and a Denman Prospect to City service a Watson to City via Belconnen and Molonglo service?


I meant R7 and at R10 not R9

King of Buses

Just noticed: school services (or the few which remain) are now 4 digit route numbers. For example: 1002.

School runs mostly only appear to be for the purpose of shuttling students to/from the nearest town/group centre and/or connection point to suburban routes, rather than from a school to everywhere in the surrounding region - this will NOT go down well, I imagine. It will save a lot of buses though.

Not sure if we have enough artics to handle that though (unless they run multiples of the same service with rigids, where needed). I'm sure they'd have thought about such things though...

Busfanatic101

Quote from: King of Buses on June 19, 2018, 11:43:51 pm
Just noticed: school services (or the few which remain) are now 4 digit route numbers. For example: 1002.

School runs mostly only appear to be for the purpose of shuttling students to/from the nearest town/group centre and/or connection point to suburban routes, rather than from a school to everywhere in the surrounding region - this will NOT go down well, I imagine. It will save a lot of buses though.

Not sure if we have enough artics to handle that though (unless they run multiples of the same service with rigids, where needed). I'm sure they'd have thought about such things though...



Interesting. I'm surprised Fadden PS gets its own school bus which completely overlaps 74/75 when they seem so set on not providing school services in general.


Looking forward to seeing all the Narrabundah students try and cram onto R6 - currently the 864 and 6 to Woden (Artic and Iris) are both full, 862 and 6 to City (PR3 and MAN) are also both full (614 to city with the artic was well utilized alongside 862 too until they made that useless by idling in front of the school until 4:15pm). I won't be there to see it anymore.

vnguyen

The R2 going to COC could work in the evenings if TC and QCIT transit have a thing going so Queanbeyan residents can change at COC for late night buses to Queanbeyan which they don't have from Canberra.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: King of Buses on June 19, 2018, 02:26:37 pm
I'm not certain what they plan on doing with route 56, as I don't think it needs to go to Fyshwick at all hours of the day.


I have to disagree with you there, there's quite a lot to do in Fyshwick plus the DIY stores around the place. For quite a majority of the locations I have visited there over the past couple of years, it's become a pain in the butt to not only navigate around there, but work out the best way to travel around whilst making sure there's a way home after if planning for an all-day shop frenzy. 

For example, I created this list a few weeks ago to go shopping there with my mum, but because of the current network being so aggravatingly inconvenient, trying to plan a all-day trip/shop to take a photo of a bus stop, buy 1 thing at COC, spending some time looking at wheelchairs and stuff (cause of mum's twin hip operation last year) at a store that ironically no longer has an operational bus stop outside its door, spending a couple hours looking a beds and mattresses (although only going to HN cause going to the other bed stores would need another day trip) and then trying to connect to a Tuggeranong (not really) express, with as little walking as possible and almost missing out on Bunnings, is annoying, unnecessarily time consuming, and a plain old annoyance.

But back to late services though... There are many things to do in Fyshwick, some involving educational things which is always a surprise to me when I see those sorts of things in an industrial suburb like Fyshwick. The issue with those is they're on late in the evening, and with the current network the only way of getting home is walking to Narrabundah to get a bus back to the Woden or even the City and even then missing the last evening suburban service, cause at the night the 200's only go from the Railway Station and the 80s stop around 6pm.

At least an hourly service up until like 10/11pm or something would do for those of us whos only option is to get the bus or take all night trying to find a cab...


Also, what's the FRC route? Can't seem to find anywhere that explains what it is.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on June 20, 2018, 02:50:17 am
Also, what's the FRC route? Can't seem to find anywhere that explains what it is.

Future Rapid Corridor. I personally can't see what they're waiting for, doesn't need to be a rapid but would be a good connection to have from Weston Creek/Molonglo to Belco.

Toyota Camry

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on June 20, 2018, 02:50:17 am
But back to late services though... There are many things to do in Fyshwick, some involving educational things which is always a surprise to me when I see those sorts of things in an industrial suburb like Fyshwick. The issue with those is they're on late in the evening

Brothels? Buying porn?

Not many would want to be seen waiting for a bus outside a brothel at night; it is a sure fire hint of where they have been, most would pay $10 for an Uber to keep their dignity.

Sylvan Loves Buses

That's not what I was talking about...

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on June 20, 2018, 09:16:26 am
Future Rapid Corridor. I personally can't see what they're waiting for, doesn't need to be a rapid but would be a good connection to have from Weston Creek/Molonglo to Belco.


Ah, I see - or a Tuggeranong express would be nice too.

muke

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on June 20, 2018, 09:16:26 am
Future Rapid Corridor. I personally can't see what they're waiting for, doesn't need to be a rapid but would be a good connection to have from Weston Creek/Molonglo to Belco.


I would speculate that the road, involving a low level bridge liable to frequent flooding with no easy alternate route for diversion, would mean the road/route whilst suitable for buses is only presently used by buses not in service taking a short cut rather than an official public route service.

Snorzac

Whilst upon reading your post I would agree that this is most likely the reason for not having the R10 travel to Belconnen, according to Google maps travelling from Denman Prospect to Belconnen is only three minutes longer than via Coppins Crossing, so by building an extra few minutes into the back end of the run (which should be the case with all services to stop flow on effect late running) you can make time for those few occasions when the bus cannot use Coppins Crossing.

Busfanatic101

What is this alternative route you suggest? Coppins Crossing connects Denman prospect to belco

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well just from going over google street view of it, it doesn't look too bad. Albeit it may be dangerous at night and/or during heavy rain, the obvious alternative would be up Tuggeranong Parkway, it would only cost another 5 or so minutes which isn't so bad (provided there's no accident there too).

Personally I wouldn't vote for it if Tuggeranong doesn't get a direct Belco access too.


Snorzac

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on June 21, 2018, 10:05:03 am
What is this alternative route you suggest? Coppins Crossing connects Denman prospect to belco


Sorry, late night post, left the important bits out....It only take three minutes extra between Denman Prospect and Belconnen travelling via the Parkway as opposed to Coppins Crossing, so there is your alternative if Coppins Crossing were to be closed.

Tuggeranong doesn't need a Belconnen direct service, a direct Molonglo to Belconnen service is warranted because of their proximity to each other and also with Molonglo still in the development phase it still lacks a lot of facilities, and due to the proximity of Belconnen it makes the most sense for a link via public transport in my opinion.

Sylvan Loves Buses

It's probably not needed for everyone sure, but it is a very handy thing to have.
I found it annoying when they put the 705 back to go through Weston, the route saved at least 15 minutes vs the 300s, more during peak before that, it's just too bad it was never made an all-day service cause trying to get home during the day for a quick little something, at night or on the weekend from a suburb of Belconnen on a 300 is one hell of a boringly time consuming journey, and much worse from Gungahlin - even though it's probably more unlikely that a Gungahlin to Woden/Tuggeranong service will happen now cause of the LR.

Snorzac

Lets be very clear, there is a direct service linking everywhere you want to travel in Canberra...its called a car, and if you don't like that then you need to deal with changing buses and sitting on buses like every other person in Canberra...

Sylvan Loves Buses

It's not that I don't like cars, I just don't like your attitude on this matter.
I already do deal with that as I have done for the past 21 years...
Besides, fuel is expensive, taxis aren't cheap, and neither my mum nor I have a license, so what else am I suppose to do huh? I've been whining about buses for 20 years, it's not like I'm gonna stop...

Toyota Camry

Personally; my opinion is that if you are seeking a lifestyle without cars, you should move to another city, such as Sydney. Canberra has excellent roads for driving on, and that fact combined with small population makes it uneconomical to run enough buses.

My suggestion to you; is that if it is your desire to not ever drive, you should budget enough money to afford trips with taxi and ride sharing services, such as Uber, Ola, GoCatch, Canberra Cabs, Canberra Elite Taxis, CabXpress and ACTCABS.

The alternative, is to spend half of your life divided between sitting on bus stops, at bus stations and on buses taking the long way through the suburbs.

Barry Drive

Quote from: King of Buses on June 19, 2018, 02:26:37 pm
I reckon the R7 could be extended to Tuggeranong via Namatjira Dr, and the 70/71 remain the same or similar to existing routes 60/62, with connections on Sulwood Dr and Drakeford Dr for travel to Cooleman Court

I agree with that. While I would prefer a City - Tuggeranong direct service, a City - Weston - Tuggeranong all-day Rapid is a suitable alternative. And it has the added advantage of shortening the 70/71 as stated.

And while I understand the usefulness of having R8 extend to Molonglo, there just aren't enough people in the area (yet) to make that viable. There's limited amount of buses and drivers (and you can't do everything).

muke

I suspect the ultimate use of the "FRC" will be a direct Belco to Woden via Molonglo and Weston rapid with a connection at Weston for Tuggeranong. It will be the final piece of the puzzle that addresses the present shortcomings if the 300series blue rapids connecting Woden and Belco via City are cut up in the new network.

ajw373

RE the R10 and going to Belconnen vi the FRC. Well that is exactly the plan, FRC stands for Future Rapid Connection so yes it will go to belco.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: ajw373 on June 24, 2018, 05:28:59 pm
RE the R10 and going to Belconnen vi the FRC. Well that is exactly the plan, FRC stands for Future Rapid Connection so yes it will go to belco.

He said Belco to Woden. So not "exactly", and not suggesting that the R10 should/will extend to belco

ajw373

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on June 24, 2018, 06:53:57 pm
He said Belco to Woden. So not "exactly", and not suggesting that the R10 should/will extend to belco


And I said R10, which is exactly the plan (it would seem).

Busfanatic101

Frequencies of local services is now available on the regional factsheets. It appears all bidirectional loops will operate 2 hourly on weekends, ie. staggered 967/968 style. I'm not quite convinced with the whole 'switching buses in return for increased frequency' concept with the frequencies proposed.

ajw373

The frequencies are a bit ambiguous. I was looking at the Gungahlin loops weekday and it says every 20 minutes in peak. But wasn't sure if that was each direction or in total. Then looked at a non loop and it said 30 minutes in the peak which is plain silly foba peak hour service.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: ajw373 on June 27, 2018, 08:32:16 am
The frequencies are a bit ambiguous. I was looking at the Gungahlin loops weekday and it says every 20 minutes in peak. But wasn't sure if that was each direction or in total. Then looked at a non loop and it said 30 minutes in the peak which is plain silly foba peak hour service.

It would be each way, not total. There would be no way they have 2 hourly in total on weekends.
I suppose some off-peak frequencies have been doubled (hourly to half-hourly), but for the most part not much of an improvement.

ajw373

When I said total I meant for both routes. So for example the two loops said 20 minute frequencies. To me it means that there will be 1 bus in each direction every 40 minutes which seems to correlate to what you were saying about weekend frequencies in the loop routes.

Busfanatic101

Yeah I know what you meant.
I'm saying that if it says frequency 20 minutes, it would be 3 buses each way for the hour.
I say this because for the weekend, it says frequency is 2-hourly. By this, they would mean what is done now - a clockwise loop one hour and an anticlockwise loop the next. Therefore, I gather that the frequency refers to each direction, rather than in total.


ajw373

Interesting some of the frequencies then. The frequency of the routes around Casey at a hot bizarre in that case. No doubt elsewhere. The loop route 3 in each direction per hour the non loop route 2 per hour.

Toyota Camry

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on June 27, 2018, 09:25:53 am
It would be each way, not total. There would be no way they have 2 hourly in total on weekends.

If you live at one end of a loop service, the service may just as easily be two hourly on weekends; for example O'Malley residents have route 923/924 every two hours in each direction, but the journey time to travel the long side of the loop to Woden is too long.

Northside

Why is everyone struggling over the concept of loop routes? Have the previous networks really been that bad to have caused permanent damage!?

They are essentially two separate routes that connect in the middle, that's all. You just have to remember to catch one number in and the other out. If they are treated like separate routes (which they seem to be), then they work well. Having said that, the 2 or three two-hourly frequency routes is pretty poor. Surely it's not a huge difference to make them hourly like all other services?

Northside

Some very quick suggestions from me:

I really don't understand why the R5 needs to go all the way to Lanyon (beyond Calwell) or the R3 all the way to Spence (beyond Belconnen).

For the latter, the 42 and current R3 suburban route can combine to create a 15 min frequency through Florey anyway. For te former, the 76 can be extended to provide a half hourly service through to Laynon.

I'd also rourte the 74/75 via Calwell shops Johnson Dr then Ashley Dr, instead of the length or Clift Cres. This will provide a quick link from Calwell to Tuggeranong.

Send the 66 from Manuka via Canberra Cct to National cct, then via Federation mall and around to COmm Ave - you can then change the 57/58 to use the COmm ave ramp to Parliament house - saving time on all 3 routes.

The R10/67/66 seems overengineered and a waste of resources - but not sure what to do here yet.

18 should travel from Nullarbor to the Woolies shops then via Oodgeroo Ave to Manning Clarke. The route via Cultivation doesn't add a lot of value because yo'd need to take a guess which route is going to leave next so you can judge which LR stop to get off at. It also feeds the fairly busy stop in front of the Early Learning centre.

Extend the R8 after Gungahlin via Mirrabei to Moncrieff Terminus. Also needs a stop between Abena and Barton to transfer 24/25 pax to Belco.

The 27/28 can be combined to run from Gungahlin via Gungahlin Dr, Amagula, Gurrang, Wanganeen, Unaipon, Burrumarra, Jabanungga, Newlop to Casey MP. Return via Gungahlin Dr, Wanganeen, Jabanungga etc. and can then be half hourly rather than hourly.

Then Re-route the 25/26 via Plimol instead of Horse Park - Using Horse Park is complete overkill with the routes on Jabanungga and Plimsol so close.

Re-route 19/20 from Mulligans Flat via L on Horse Park, Amaroo Shops, Burdekin, Paul Coe etc to pick up Paul Coe from 27 and provide access to the shops. Again, Katherine Ave is already serviced by 25/26, except from the other side. So you get the situation where you need to guess what side to wait to cathc you next bus to Gungahlin.

Route 50 past Dickson should become route 52 and be brought back to half hourly - don't bother with a connection to the LR, it still connects to the shops and R9 on Cowper st but will save a heap of time. Just run 52 from Cowper via Torrens, Elouera and Mort instead of looping around Canberra Ctr.

I think that's it for now.

ajw373

Loop routes have been tried before and didn't work too well hence why they were removed.

As for stops on Gundaroo drive between Crace and the highway to transfer from the Gold Creek bus to the Belco to Gunners rapid I bet there will be a stop added but only after the road is duplicated. At present there is no where for one and with the roadworks would be dangerous to put one in and have people crossing the road.

Whilst maybe not truly indicative the flyover video of stage 2 duplication shows a set of stops on the highway side of the Crace roundabout.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Northside on June 28, 2018, 01:59:04 pm
Why is everyone struggling over the concept of loop routes? Have the previous networks really been that bad to have caused permanent damage!?


Yes, and what Toyota Camry described is what I've been saying all along too... Just imagine you're a a disabled person in a wheelchair, and the bus comes 2 minutes early, you have to wait 2 hours for the next one cause the other way just takes too long to get to where you're going, or where you're going is where the loop direction you were going is the only way to get there quickly and the other way goes to the interchange and not where you're going.

Sylvan Loves Buses

^ or maybe not even early, maybe it was a Renault.

Bus 400

I have put a tweet out to Meegan Firzharris & Transport Canberra to see if connections of 5 minutes can be guaranteed.  No response after 2 days.

With the loops, if you were going to miss your bus at Tuggeranong, you could get off the bus on Soward Way or Erindale. With the 4 & 5 not connecting anywhere useful. If you miss your loop at Tuggeranong you're screwed.

I have thought about linking the 10 to the Airport & extending the 4 to Kippax. Could be extended to Ginninderry as time permits. With the 10 running Airport to Airport development (Denman Prospect - Stromlo Forest Park).
Cutting the 2 altogether, with the 40 to go through Macgregor & 41 to go to Kippax via Lhotsky & Florey Dr.

Since the set up is there, maybe the 23/24 could be spilt & terminate at Giralang Terminus. Providing direct link to the 8 & easy turn around for buses to head back to Gungahlin.

I try others later.

vnguyen

Quote from: Northside on June 28, 2018, 02:33:12 pm

Send the 66 from Manuka via Canberra Cct to National cct, then via Federation mall and around to COmm Ave - you can then change the 57/58 to use the COmm ave ramp to Parliament house - saving time on all 3 routes.


Why send a Weston loop service from Manuka? I think you meant the 56.

Northside

Quote from: vnguyen on July 07, 2018, 12:22:00 am
Why send a Weston loop service from Manuka? I think you meant the 56.


Typo! My bad, yes you are correct.

triumph

Transport Canberra is regularly announcing at some interchanges/bus stations the proposed network will have "more buses, more often, to more places".

The first is probably correct, if retirements are postponed (as has been indicated in the forum), and the second is certainly so. But what about 'more places'? I can't see that. What does the forum think?

Route 101. At a consultation at the Belconnen Library the facilitators said that route was a separate function and implied it would continue. But the Canberra Times yesterday reports (with routes 81 and 101 mixed up) otherwise. In or out?

Barry Drive

More places, maybe. Certainly not more stops.

I think they're referring to bus routes that will go to Taylor and Throsby for the first time. Even though it may be outnumbered by the places that will lose services, such as Hume, Campbell Park, ANU, Arboretum/Zoo.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Yeah, it's more like to more 'newer' places and less 'used' places around Canberra, that's the vibe I'm getting off it.

Quote from: Barry DriveCertainly not more stops.

Most definitely. I still remember counting a total of 41 sets of stops that were proposed to be removed from the network in just the Wanniassa/Oxley/Erindale area for the Network 14 proposal, this one proposed another 21 sets of stops in the Wanniassa/Kambah area, but this time it's many more stops I know have steady patronage.

I'm not fussed about more often buses, in fact it's about time they've decided to do it properly, but there's not going to be much access to many areas around Canberra if this plan would to go ahead, at least not for a majority of its users.
I have not seen an updated map (if there's been one) since the last I looked so maybe some things may change my mind about how I feel about it, but I'm certainly not in the 'satisfied', nor 'neutral' group yet.

Bus 400

We do have to remember that it has been mentioned that the new network will be done within the current budget. This new network proposes 9 rapids running til midnight Monday to Saturday &10pm on Sunday. So bigger than realized cuts are coming.

Taking that into consideration, has anyone checked how many buses start from 7-9am on weekdays (school buses included) & how many are proposed? Taking in mind that a lot of new services are shorter, so should run more frequently.

If my memory serves my correctly, the current network cut a couple of hundred services in total. Just by ending buses earlier.

Northside

What I want to figure out is what's happening to the extra bus-kilometres/bus-hours saved by the light rail. Currently there are 20 red-rapid services arriving between 8 and 9am in the morning peak on an approximately 40 min journey. So that's over 13 bus-hours saved just there. Then include all the 5# and 3# buses on the remainder of the route and you have a heap of extra bus-hours to spread around the network. I can't see that all these hours are being used in the new network, it seems like these hours have just been dropped and the new network created from the remainder of the existing network. This is pretty disappointing if that's the case.

ajw373

Quote from: Northside on July 13, 2018, 12:25:51 pm
What I want to figure out is what's happening to the extra bus-kilometres/bus-hours saved by the light rail. Currently there are 20 red-rapid services arriving between 8 and 9am in the morning peak on an approximately 40 min journey. So that's over 13 bus-hours saved just there. Then include all the 5# and 3# buses on the remainder of the route and you have a heap of extra bus-hours to spread around the network. I can't see that all these hours are being used in the new network, it seems like these hours have just been dropped and the new network created from the remainder of the existing network. This is pretty disappointing if that's the case.


Without a detailed timetable how can you tell where bus hours are or aren't being used?

Though you do raise an interesting point that leads to the one things I don't like about the proposed bus routes. And that is the lack of Xpressos and if the rapids, the light rail in particular has enough capacity.

As you mention the red rapid has about 20 buses in one hour in the peak many that I see on northborne have the bus full sign up to be replaced by 10 light rail services. Plus some North Canberra buses will feed Dickson and onto light rail. Capacity wise probably needs 15 light rail carriage worth an hour to carry the same number of people or share the love and keep some express buses. The best answer would be for some of the suburbs in west Gungahlin like Casey, Taylor, Nicholas to have. a direct service via the Barton highway.

And yes I have had my day on the official reply website.

Barry Drive

July 13, 2018, 02:12:38 pm #94 Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 02:41:14 pm by Barry Drive
Exactly what I've been wondering. There will be fewer School Services, no Xpressos, no buses to Hume or Fairbairn and 40 additional buses as well as no more "Red Rapid" bus services.

And yet there seems to be insufficient capacity for the major "Rapid" services in peak. Yes, there are additional services in new suburbs, but reduced services elsewhere.

How can that be? If there are more frequent feeder services but reduced capacity on Rapids, then it won't work.

Quote from: triumph on July 12, 2018, 01:03:35 am
Route 101. At a consultation at the Belconnen Library the facilitators said that route was a separate function and implied it would continue. But the Canberra Times yesterday reports (with routes 81 and 101 mixed up) otherwise. In or out?
Transport Canberra / TCCS Minister have had the opportunity to confirm or deny reports. Neither has occurred.

The main reason to abandon the service would be the low number of passengers using it. But if the route was changed and the hours reduced to where demand is at its highest, average passenger numbers will go up. Also it uses drivers which could be used elsewhere and requires 6 buses which occupy valuable depot space and workshop hours. As well, it doesn't fit into the "all buses must operate 7 days a week" model.

Bus 503

The frequencies of the 30 and 31 are every 20 minutes during peak hour in the new network. In previous networks like Network 14, 14.1 and 16, the frequencies were every 15 minutes (most of the time) to either the City or Belconnen (morning or afternoon). The cut-back in services is odd, mainly because I think there is more patronage from university students to the ANU and more passengers from Lawson.

By looking at my old timetables, I have counted seven services from Belconnen (Cohen Street) to the City starting from Cohen Street before 8:00am. In the current network, there are only four. This is quite a reduction.

I also don't feel the government was open about the fact that passengers would have to transfer at Dickson Interchange onto buses or light rail if catching the 30 or 31. However, I am unsure whether transferring will reduce or increase travel time because there are less stops and right of way on the light rail, but likely extra time with transferring between light rail and buses.

I believe that the best measure of success/failure for the new network will be whether it reduces passenger's travel times or increases travel times. Without timetables, it is very hard to see how travel times will change so is far too vague.

Toyota Camry

Quote from: Northside on July 13, 2018, 12:25:51 pm
What I want to figure out is what's happening to the extra bus-kilometres/bus-hours saved by the light rail. Currently there are 20 red-rapid services arriving between 8 and 9am in the morning peak on an approximately 40 min journey. So that's over 13 bus-hours saved just there.

There has been an announcement that the new network will operate until either midnight or 10pm; respectfully for Monday to Saturday and for Sunday. If all suburban routes are running until midnight, that is a lot of extra kilometres & hours spent right there.

It would seem quite unusual, if full buses are being cut back; and services at 11:30pm that may often run completely empty are being introduced instead.

Toyota Camry

Today I was driving on Coulter Drive at 6pm; I noticed an inbound 15 bus from Spence. It was bus 910; there was only one passenger onboard.

I do worry if there will be enough passengers from that area to justify the full time rapid service from next year; known as route R3.

Northside

Quote from: ajw373 on July 13, 2018, 01:02:32 pm
Without a detailed timetable how can you tell where bus hours are or aren't being used?


Going by the estimated frequencies for each service (on the regional pages of the website). As mentioned, there are several services that have significantly reduced frequencies in peak and outside. Gungahin routes haven't had any increase in frequency (51/51 have both been halved outside of peak). Just one new route essentially and the only region without a suburban Rapid Route. Popular inner northern routes, ie the current 1, 2 and 7 have been decimated and weird detours added to either force transfers to the light rail or prevent passengers from using a bus service within 1-2kms of the light rail. I'm starting to wonder if there is a clause in the operators contract about forcing pax on to the light rail.

Quote
As you mention the red rapid has about 20 buses in one hour in the peak many that I see on northborne have the bus full sign up to be replaced by 10 light rail services. Plus some North Canberra buses will feed Dickson and onto light rail. Capacity wise probably needs 15 light rail carriage worth an hour to carry the same number of people or share the love and keep some express buses. The best answer would be for some of the suburbs in west Gungahlin like Casey, Taylor, Nicholas to have. a direct service via the Barton highway.


I think the howls on Canberra Times with people saying this is a white elephant and will never be used are kidding themselves. This has no where near the capacity it needs in peak. As for interpeak, I've noticed a huge increase in pax on the 200 on weekends now that it is every 15 mins, so I think people will be surprised how well it will be used. After all, there is a huge student population in the high density apartments all along the route. For all the Tuggeranong residents wondering why they won't ever get a light rail line, that's the reason -- Tuggers is all urban sprawl and hasn't near the required density for light rail.

Anyway, end of rant. A simpler way to increase capacity is to have fewer of the inner bus routes requiring a transfer at Dickson. Why doesn't the 50 between Dickson and Watson continue to the city along the 52 route? Why doesn't the 30 or 31 continue on to the city via the 51? Both have places where pax can transfer to a Dickson service on the R9. That would save time on transfer and with the routes having to negotiate the terribly congested east-west traverse from antil to moat.

All in all, I like the concept, it's just been executed so poorly and so underwhelmingly.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well on the second of the consultations at the City Interchange of which I went to, the CEO of TC visited for a little while, and I discussed many things with him. This extended hours thing was one such subject. There seems to be a plan that late hours travel is one key thing they're working on, and although even now most services will have little to none passengers on board these, one of my points was "it's better to know that there's a bus there to take you home, rather than knowing that you're gonna be stranded". For those of us like myself who have only buses as a choice of accessibility (no taxi, no phone for uber, nothin'), travelling home from select areas is difficult.

Another issue is the connection times between rapids and suburban routes where they don't meet even by 2 or 3 minutes without your first connection being very early or the inconvenience of walking home many kilometres from a rapid due to a service home you need doesn't run late enough. I'm lucky enough to not have to worry too much about this living just under a K from the Wanniassa PnR stop, but cause of that walking distance I would rather a closer bus. At the moment I've been actively doing things at the German Club in Narrabundah late in the evenings, I must get the 6 to Woden that is suppose to come by at 9:50pm so I can be in Woden either for the 60S (10pm) if a few minutes early or the 64S (10:20pm) if on time or late. However these events I would rather stay right to the end for, but in doing so I would need to wait for the next 6, but it means missing all suburban connections to Kambah back home and getting an Intertown. Until recently I've been having to report the drivers cause they've been up to 7 minutes early which is bad planning on the times designers, but it is something that is manageable even though I wish there were more options. I would much prefer to get a 62 at around that time, but for some reason there is no later 62S at that time (and many others like that for a lot of other routes). However, someone did have to pay this unfortunate price the other day though. A woman walked up to the 64S (10:20pm) I boarded the other night asking to go to either Chisholm or Gilmore, and I knew the 66 or 67 go there, and noticing that the 67 on the other side of the Interchange had left just moments before, I thought there was another 66, but going over my timetable noticing there wasn't, and it left 40 minutes prior. Wrong place, wrong time. She was pretty much screwed unless she was lucky to pick up a taxi or something cause there was pretty much nothing else except walking home from Athllon or Tuggeranong which I seriously doubt.

The unfortunate things about late night services and the main reasons for the cuts is cause of the cost, but it's not like that should matter too much cause like what the CEO (I will not disclose him name unless it's allowed) agreed with me is, if ACTION/TC was privately run and didn't have the government support to pay for all this, it would've gone bankrupt over 50+ years ago. So what's the point in arguing if a few extra buses should run for those who (emphasis on the 'may') may need them at night. I have noticed quite often getting the last services at night on different runs, there's most often no one on them, including the rapids, but every now and again there's someone.

Quote from: Bus 400the new network will be done within the current budget

Some would wonder how there's even a budget left after the Lightrail is finished.


On another note, I think the Fairburn, Campbell thing will be considered again cause many people who came by on the day I was there were concerned about it. I eves dropped one such person say "thousands of people work there" - obviously not of all them catch the bus, but maybe 5-10% of them do.

Toyota Camry

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on July 14, 2018, 10:29:00 amFor those of us like myself who have only buses as a choice of accessibility (no taxi, no phone for uber, nothin')

I recommend that you visit the Optus store at Westfield Woden; they are very helpful and can sell you a mobile phone that will allow you to use ride sharing applications including Uber, GoCatch and Ola.

Bus 400

At the moment, 514 route services start between 7-9am in Canberra. This excludes buses that start at 06:59 or earlier & 09:00 & later. I also haven't counted all school services yet.

Without knowing not in peak direction frequencies, roughly 360 services will run in one direction. By the looks of things, it'll be the cutting school buses which will get this network.

Barry Drive

This does raise an interesting question though: what will happen with the anti-peak flow,  particularly of "Rapids"?

Will there be almost empty buses operating the full route to Spence, Dunlop and Watson in the morning, but running at peak frequency? (And reverse in the evenings?)

Sylvan Loves Buses

Same with the Airport rapid too, how many people really need to go to the Airport that often.

Snorzac

You'd actually be surprised how many people are actually getting the buses to the airport, if public transport is in place on a regular basis people will actually use it as proven by the regular operation of the 11/11A. i have caught the bus to work on multiple occasions since moving house recently and it is not uncommon for there to be 10-15 people on the bus travelling to or from the airport

Sylvan Loves Buses

Ok, but 10-15 minutes I don't think would exactly be necessary, surely 20-30 would be enough.

triumph

I use a route with 1/2hr interval during the day and 20min at peak. It is surprising how relaxing it is to realise that there will be another in 20min as you watch the just missed bus disappear, compared with the drag of waiting 1/2hr. If you can't plan precisely around the bus timetable (eg appointments 5min before scheduled arrival, random task completion) it is very encouraging to opt for public transport if it is basically turn up, no more than a short wait, and go and if delayed there is a later service to use. Thus the point is, not what present usage is but what usage can be developed over time. (Melbourne trams are a good example of how users automatically opt for the trams when services are frequent. Very often, on week days at least, if you miss a tram the next is already in sight.)

Commenting on the airport aspect, it is easy to overlook the substantial non-aviation commercial development that exists there. A bigger concern however, is that a large number of flights depart very early in the morning. Taking into account check-in times, the present bus service is not useful for substantial numbers of passengers, especially from beyond the City. This is a major failing of public transport in general. Each service is treated in isolation rather than being considered as a whole co-ordinated system from origin to destination. 

King of Buses

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on July 17, 2018, 08:24:39 pm
Ok, but 10-15 minutes I don't think would exactly be necessary, surely 20-30 would be enough.


Over time patronage to/from the airport will build up further with a Rapid bus every 10-15 mins as the Airport gets busier - which is important if LR and/or HSR ever make there.

However, the Spence to Belconnen sector of the R3, the Fraser to Kippax sector of the R2, the Calwell to Lanyon section of the R5 and the Watson to Dickson sector of the R9 however won't likely build patronage like this, so I'm more concerned about why these areas need a bus every 10-15 mins all day, when maybe only every second trip could service these sections of the routes (or, better still, not bother at all and make everyone in Dunlop/Macgregor and Spence/Florey transfer from/to a suburban service at the nearest group/town centre like every other suburb in Canberra).

Snorzac

Quote from: triumph on July 17, 2018, 10:16:59 pm
Commenting on the airport aspect, it is easy to overlook the substantial non-aviation commercial development that exists there. A bigger concern however, is that a large number of flights depart very early in the morning. Taking into account check-in times, the present bus service is not useful for substantial numbers of passengers, especially from beyond the City. This is a major failing of public transport in general. Each service is treated in isolation rather than being considered as a whole co-ordinated system from origin to destination. 


Hit the nail on the head...the earliest flight you can currently make based off check in times is an 0715 departure if you really want to push it, this leaves at least 5 flights from one airline alone (plus whatever the opposition offer) not serviced by public transport on a weekday morning, evenings you do not have any service to the only arrival from both Perth and the Gold Coast each day as well as no access to public transport for passengers travelling to or from Canberra on a Singapore Airlines.

You could argue that services on this particular service should operate at earlier hours of the morning or later into the evening but then that raises the issue of what it connects with and whether it is worth operating a service with no connections.

Personally I believe that Canberra  should move to a 24 hour network with hourly to half hour trunk or rapid services connecting with flexible demand responsive area services. Whilst patronage isn't ever going to be high for these services, there is still a need for it in my opinion and this would solve the afformentioned issues with a service to the airport.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I would certainly vote for 24hr too, I still can't see why they won't. Just gotta wait for them to pull their thumbs out of their butts I guess...

Quote from: King of Buses on July 17, 2018, 10:18:29 pm
However, the Spence to Belconnen sector of the R3, the Fraser to Kippax sector of the R2, the Calwell to Lanyon section of the R5 and the Watson to Dickson sector of the R9 however won't likely build patronage like this, so I'm more concerned about why these areas need a bus every 10-15 mins all day, when maybe only every second trip could service these sections of the routes


I've been having that same thought too, even now those same sorts of routes (including the 39 during the 3-5pm period) have so many that there's pretty much only half of them with actual patronage on them after/before the Interchanges.

Quote from: triumph on July 17, 2018, 10:16:59 pmMelbourne trams are a good example of how users automatically opt for the trams when services are frequent. Very often, on week days at least, if you miss a tram the next is already in sight.


Yes of course, but all the trams of a single area are unlikely to run 20 minutes late every single day at the same period due to the use of their own roads. This is another of the issues I see with the fact of when these busy roads getting held up due to accidents, works, full buses or/and the driver arriving to start the route late from the previous route. The problem there will be that there'd be several of those 10 minute frequency buses all within a minute or two of each other when they get away again. Of course this doesn't happen all the time, but I feel it's something the govenrment doesn't think too much about when it does. I finally got around to watching that parliament meeting about the discussion for this project, and this did not come up in the discussion.

Snorzac

As they teach you when you work in the airline industry....you cant roster or plan for schedule disruption, if it is a constant issue then it is something that will need to be addressed but there is no way to predict and plan the pattern of say traffic disruptions, etc

ajw373

Quote from: Snorzac on July 17, 2018, 10:38:53 pm
Hit the nail on the head...the earliest flight you can currently make based off check in times is an 0715 departure if you really want to push it, this leaves at least 5 flights from one airline alone (plus whatever the opposition offer) not serviced by public transport on a weekday morning, evenings you do not have any service to the only arrival from both Perth and the Gold Coast each day as well as no access to public transport for passengers travelling to or from Canberra on a Singapore Airlines.

You could argue that services on this particular service should operate at earlier hours of the morning or later into the evening but then that raises the issue of what it connects with and whether it is worth operating a service with no connections.

Personally I believe that Canberra  should move to a 24 hour network with hourly to half hour trunk or rapid services connecting with flexible demand responsive area services. Whilst patronage isn't ever going to be high for these services, there is still a need for it in my opinion and this would solve the afformentioned issues with a service to the airport.


Realistically how many people are getting buses to the airport that are flying? I would say not many, most passengers would be working in the airport (though most would drive, or like a mate of mine who works there ride his pushy) or more than likley the business park.

Snorzac

As I said, the 11/11A is a classic case of if the service is there, people will use it. I got the bus to the airport for a flight this morning and there was about 15 pax on the bus and about 10 had baggage.

Toyota Camry

I am guessing that this route 54 bus was being driven by a manager, in control of the new network; otherwise they would not have blocked an ordinary bus, as a bus driver would not be able to change the network proposal.

Quote'Insulting': bus route changes hit elderly, defence personnel
Finbar O'Mallon
By Finbar O'Mallon
25 July 2018 -- 8:49pm

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Crace residents protested against the ACT government's proposed 2019 changes to Canberra's bus routes on Wednesday.

About 40 protesters gathered at the route 54 bus stop near the Crace shops, temporarily stopping a Belconnen-bound bus.


Residents of Goodwin Retirement Village and supportive neighbours in Crace hold a silent demonstration to protest the government's proposed changes to their bus route. They briefly stepped out in front of the 11.22am bus.
Photo: Karleen Minney

The protests mark a tide of growing anger against the government's flagged changes, following on from cancellation of dedicated bus services for Canberra schools.

In Braddon, older locals are concerned the routes will confine them to the inner-north. Another proposed change would force defence personnel in Campbell Park to walk a kilometre on the side of an unlit road to catch a new bus from Fairbairn Avenue.

The Crace protesters, mainly elderly residents of the nearby Goodwin Retirement Village, currently catch the 54 bus directly to Belconnen.
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But the government's proposed changes would mean the 54 stop at the shops would be axed, forcing travellers to walk nearly one kilometre to Gundaroo Drive to catch a bus into Gungahlin before catching a second to Belconnen.

Crace residents committee secretary Sue Brudenall said most of the village residents travelled to Belconnen for their doctors and medical appointments, shopping or just to see the movies.

"There's a lot more at Belconnen than at Gungahlin at the moment," Ms Brudenall said.

Ms Brudenall said there was no shelter on the way to the new stop at Gundaroo Drive.

"That's too much for a lot of people who are in their 70s because it's about a kilometre walk, plus they're doing all the roadworks," Ms Brudenall said.

Ms Brudenall said the bus was also used by University of Canberra students.

A small group of the residents will be back at the Crace chops on Saturday to collect signatures for a petition they plan to hand to ACT Opposition Leader Liberal MLA Alistair Coe.

A transport directorate spokesman told The Canberra Times on Thursday confirmed the government had received a submission from the village.

It admitted alternative stops for Crace residents were a further walk but said the government's "flexibus", a free community shuttle for older Canberrans and those with mobility issues, could take them to the stops.

In Braddon, Jennifer Bluhm - a resident of retirement village Girrahween Lodge - said potential changes to the route seven bus expected in 2019 were insulting.

Lodge residents are able to catch the route seven bus right outside their door on Girrahween Street, but changes would force them to either walk three blocks south to Cooyong Road for a route 52 bus or six blocks west to Northbourne Avenue for the then-completed tram.

Ms Bluhm said one of the lodge residents was an 82-year-old woman with a walker.

"She's not going to walk to Northbourne Avenue in any event, she said 'I may as well walk to Civic'," Ms Bluhm said.

While the route seven bus takes the lodge residents straight to Belconnen, the 52 bus travels to Dickson shops where they would take a second bus to Belconnen.

"Who ever heard of two buses connecting?" Ms Bluhm asked.

Ms Bluhm said her gym and her doctor were based in Belconnen, and she normally travelled to her doctor on weekends, when the 52 bus doesn't operate.

The government has suggested inner-north residents use the "flexibus".

But this free service only takes them to Civic, Dickson or Ainslie.

"How would you feel if someone says you can only go to Civic?" Ms Bluhm said.

Ms Bluhm said while she might be able to accept it, she doubted ACT government ministers would. Transport staff had told Ms Bluhm the changes may be reviewed but it's possible they would stay as flagged.

"I put it in the insulting category. I think it's very poorly considered and just a mess," Ms Bluhm said.

Ms Bluhm said perhaps she had been naive but this was never raised when the government began constructing the tram.

"It was never said that the whole bus network would be upset to accommodate the tram," she said.

Ms Bluhm said no one had considered the social cost of these changes either, confining people to suburbs, forcing medical personnel to travel to them and friends who no longer drove to be separated.

The Braddon locals are meeting on Friday at St Columba's Church from 1pm where they expect local opposition MLAs and transport heads to attend.

A transport directorate spokesman said the government would meet with Braddon residents but said they also had alternatives of the flexibus or a subsidised taxi scheme.

Elsewhere, a bus stop outside the defence offices in Campbell Park, opposite Duntroon, would be cut under the route changes.

Staff would be then forced to walk down Northcott Drive, an unlit road with no footpath, to catch a bus off Fairbairn Avenue.

A Transport directorate spokesman said they would meet with Campbell Park staff to discuss the changes but said the route seven bus only is only used modestly during peak hour on weekdays.

vnguyen

Which routes/sections in the current network the they should leave in this new network that has been scrapped?

Toyota Camry

I have noticed that in this new network, there are school deviations planned for some rapid trips; in my opinion rapid routes should stick to their routes, and not divert via school grounds. I have noticed that the current blue rapid and red rapid services do not have any school diversions between Lanyon and Kippax; or between Fyshwick and Gungahlin, I believe there should not be any.

For example; R4 & R5 will operate some trips via Alfred Deakin High, instead of running on Yarra Glen between Woden and Civic.

This information was found at this link; https://canberrabuses.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Alfred_Deakin_High_Guide.pdf

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on August 26, 2018, 12:47:29 am
For example; R4 & R5 will operate some trips via Alfred Deakin High, instead of running on Yarra Glen between Woden and Civic.

This information was found at this link; https://canberrabuses.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Alfred_Deakin_High_Guide.pdf



Diverting via Deakin High is a minor inconvenience compared to what Woden-Civic travel will likely be like in a few years if light rail stage 2 goes ahead.


It will be a significant improvement for Deakin HS and you can't underestimate the patronage they get from there. The only issue I have with it is that it goes against the same routes 24/7 philosophy used to justify everything else.

ajw373

This is getting off topic I know. But how is Barton diversion of the City to Woden route proposed for light rail any different to the diversion of the Belconnen to City route via College Street all those years ago. That diversion cost about the same amount of time (7 mins) as the Barton diversion will cost Woden to city but open up, like the college street diversion a whole heap more options for passengers.

And also I think there is some shadow fighting as the government has not announced what will happen to bus routes. If I were to tea leave read based on the new rapid routes I would say the R4 will stay as a direct bus Woden to City and R5 the diversion through Barton. Oddly more or less like the R5 is planned to do anyway.

Sylvan Loves Buses

The whole plan of cutting most of the school runs is a bad idea anyway, it's gonna cause so much havoc amongst the normal routes and rapids, more full buses on suburban routes forcing more real patrons to wait etc.

Busfanatic101

August 26, 2018, 06:08:07 pm #119 Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 01:07:11 pm by Barry Drive
Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on August 26, 2018, 04:44:42 pmmore full buses on suburban routes forcing more real patrons to wait etc.


I think fuller buses on suburban routes is exactly the point. Better than running empty buses. And I'd be keen to learn what definition of a real patron excludes students catching a bus to school.

Toyota Camry

Quote from: Busfanatic101 on August 26, 2018, 06:08:07 pmI think fuller buses on suburban routes is exactly the point. Better than running empty buses. And I'd be keen to learn what definition of a real patron excludes students catching a bus to school.

You are aware of what the old saying is, "children are to be seen and not heard"; I do not wish for my bus to travel 10 minutes out of the way to pick up some screaming brats, they should be on a school bus instead. My car does not deviate for screaming children; neither should my bus.

Busfanatic101

Quote from: Toyota Camry on August 26, 2018, 11:33:41 pm
You are aware of what the old saying is, "children are to be seen and not heard"; I do not wish for my bus to travel 10 minutes out of the way to pick up some screaming brats, they should be on a school bus instead. My car does not deviate for screaming children; neither should my bus.



Think of that run as a school bus then that is happy to pick up other passengers too. A bus that would have previously done a school run and been unavailable to the general public, converted to an extra service that the public can also use. If you don't deviate for students, catch another bus. No loss there. Let's just hope your other non-deviating bus doesn't have any students on board.

Bus 400

I wonder if a different idea would be to start a 4 & 5 from schools like Alfred Deakin & Melrose/Marist High Schools. Bit like Belconnen suburban buses do now from Radford.


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Busfanatic101

Quote from: Bus 400 on August 27, 2018, 06:52:56 pm
I wonder if a different idea would be to start a 4 & 5 from schools like Alfred Deakin & Melrose/Marist High Schools. Bit like Belconnen suburban buses do now from Radford.

That's a good suggestion and perhaps what they already have in mind.
There were/are 2s that started/finished at Lyneham High, and as an example of a rapid service that does this currently is a 200 that starts at Narrabundah College.
Given Deakin High is located centrally, most probably a bus will have to travel from belco/tuggers depots or at least through woden/civic, so there may be minimal advantage to start at Deakin as they will just be dead running half the same route.
Either way, it is likely that these diversion services will be in addition to the regular frequency, so an extra option for commuters rather than an inconvenience.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Saw 921 again on Monday and both 920 and 921 at the city today doing some more timings for the coming network.

Barry Drive

Media Release from yesterday. (Link)

"The full details of the changes we will make following this consultation will be announced in October, with ongoing discussions with a number of groups," said Minister Fitzharris.