ACT Bus Forum

Discussion => Fleet => Topic started by: Barry Drive on January 17, 2019, 09:40:25 am

Title: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Barry Drive on January 17, 2019, 09:40:25 am
As passed on to me by Bus 400, on the ACT Government Tenders website is an Advance Tender Notice:

"Procurement of 40 Buses (https://tenders.act.gov.au/ets/tender/display/tender-details.do?id=92047&action=display-tender-details&amp%3BreturnUrl=%2Ftender%2Fsearch%2Ftender-search.do%3F%24%7Brequest.queryString%7D&fbclid=IwAR1lHNfbQdubrTrtmobEb0gGHkEgdlq3G5KhCrv3i6Gpbr9mV6Qu-mTQoAs)"

Estimated advertising date, 30 June 2019. (Which may mean no further new buses until 2020.)

And yes, that is all it says. No information about delivery dates, bus lengths or motive power source.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Barry Drive on April 15, 2019, 12:47:47 pm
A "request for expressions of interest" has now been posted onto the Tenders website (https://tenders.act.gov.au/ets//tender/display/tender-details.do?id=102162&action=display-tender-details&fbclid=IwAR0hDRF3q82YxdhmSCmxQagj-S-4eCSRMUoVf9DRR8GtE9ETs89kgI2wL5E).

The supporting documentation says:

Quote from: undefinedWe have a substantial preference for procuring zero emission buses if financial and operational outcomes are acceptable.

The REOI is basically asking bus suppliers to provide a price and availability list of all their models meeting "zero emission", "low emission" and "efficient diesel" buses (including estimated running costs). The REOI closes 16 May 2019.

From that, Transport Canberra will evaluate what is actually available and then issue a Request for Proposal to possibly a short list from the REOI.

The contracts should be issued by November 2019 with bus delivery "to be agreed", but not expected before Woden Depot is completed in early 2020.

The document also says that leasing of buses (other than zero emission buses) may be considered if zero emissions buses are not viable yet. It also says the outcome of the process may be a mix of vehicles including diesel; or all diesel buses if there are no "zero emissions" buses capable of meeting the requirements* at this time.


* The requirements include:
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Busfanatic101 on April 15, 2019, 06:00:30 pm
Ooh what are the chances of getting any double deckers should there be one that fits the requirements?
What would be the extent of routes that one would be unable to be used for due to height restrictions? Would it be more restricted in usage than STAGs? It's there an advantage that would favour artics over a double decker and vice versa?
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: ajw373 on April 15, 2019, 09:29:42 pm
Why on earth would we NEED double deckers?
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: triumph on April 15, 2019, 10:34:22 pm
Was recently at an event attended by TC representatives.
It seems that a self contained electric bus order is largely dependent on confidence arising from the establishment in Australia of a suitable established industry/marketing setup.
Whilst some N America and European bus systems are already ordering/introducing self-contained electric vehicle fleets, the point was made that most (all?) of those current offerings are not airconditioned, so demand on the battery is considerably lower. Thus these vehicles' present technology may not be directly suitable for Australian service conditions and would need 'Australianising'. Hence the desire for an Australian industry/marketing being first established.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Sylvan Loves Buses on April 16, 2019, 07:44:54 am
Quote from: ajw373 on April 15, 2019, 09:29:42 pmWhy on earth would we NEED double deckers?

Yeah, the steertags are bad enough as it is.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Busnerd on April 16, 2019, 09:50:45 am
They could always order the Bustech electric vehicle.

(https://bondgoldcoastnews.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/horizontal2.jpg)
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Barry Drive on April 19, 2019, 01:27:59 pm
The Riot Act (https://the-riotact.com/transport-canberra-seeks-40-zero-emission-buses-to-upgrade-fleet/297379) has now reported this. From the looks of the report, they have also gained access to the EOI documents.

QuoteOoh what are the chances of getting any double deckers should there be one that fits the requirements?

What would be the extent of routes that one would be unable to be used for due to height restrictions?

Would it be more restricted in usage than STAGs? It's there an advantage that would favour artics over a double decker and vice versa?
Chances are low, but not zero. Although I doubt any electric decker would meet the range requirement.

The main advantage of a decker over an artic is price - they are cheaper to buy and maintain. While there would be few height restrictions if they were to buy 4.3m (such as the Bustech CDi), a much bigger problem would be the low-flying trees which exist in much of Central Canberra in particular.

As for the Bustech ZDi, I only ever hear reports of it broken down. Also not sure whether it would meet the 13hrs operating range.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: triumph on April 28, 2019, 05:10:24 pm
Quote from: Barry Drive on April 19, 2019, 01:27:59 pmThe main advantage of a decker over an artic is price - they are cheaper to buy and maintain. 

There are other subtle advantages compared with, say, bendy buses:
- The smaller 'footprint' is a benefit where depot and/or layover space is constrained;
- The shorter length is of benefit at congested stops, such as Westfield, Belconnen and City Interchange;
- Considering a road lane, 60kph, 5sec (recommended in wet weather) safety gap, then 5% more double deckers than bendies can be accommodated. Even better if seats are counted.
- Data I have seen suggests a double decker can seat about 54% than a bendy.

The major flies in the ointment of double deckers include:
- Dwell time at intermediate stops if lots of passengers are both getting on and getting off. This would not preclude use on local off- peak services where boardings are sparser. But the same problem exists for bendies (but not the modern tram);
- The steep and difficult stair to the top deck (experienced), the bendy contrast is the, at times, violent bucking of the rear section (also experienced to the point of mild whiplash injury);
- Crush load (standing) space limited.

No doubt there are other pros and cons.

Consequently, there is a modern tendency in Australia to use double deckers where there is a demand for seated express services between major nodes. Which leads back to the question, are they suited to the present Canberra network?

Question: Why are double deckers suited/used in inner London services? If it works there, why not here?
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Stan butler on April 28, 2019, 07:02:42 pm
One major issue with double deckers is the storage sheds at both tuggers and belco.  They are not designed for double deckers - roof too low.  So if tc were to get double deckers, then they would need to build new storage sheds, at an extra cost, at one of the depots where space is already at a premium.   

Also the maintenance areas would have to be "rejigged" to cater for the double deckers. 

I cannot imagine them building new or tearing down existing sheds to build new ones.

Unless they put them all in a new depot - ie Woden.

Just one factor to think about that will incur an extra cost.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: triumph on April 28, 2019, 08:14:18 pm
Quote from: triumph on April 28, 2019, 05:10:24 pm- Data I have seen suggests a double decker can seat about 54% than a bendy.


Just to be clear I meant to write .... 54% more than....
(Sorry about that, proof reading drives me balmy - see things too late.)
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Busnerd on April 28, 2019, 10:10:21 pm
Quote from: Stan butler on April 28, 2019, 07:02:42 pmOne major issue with double deckers is the storage sheds at both tuggers and belco.  They are not designed for double deckers - roof too low.  So if tc were to get double deckers, then they would need to build new storage sheds, at an extra cost, at one of the depots where space is already at a premium. 

Also the maintenance areas would have to be "rejigged" to cater for the double deckers. 

I cannot imagine them building new or tearing down existing sheds to build new ones.

Unless they put them all in a new depot - ie Woden.

Just one factor to think about that will incur an extra cost.
Possibly true, however most don't realise that current Double Deckers in Australia, The Volgren, Bustech, Gemilang etc. aren't that much taller than a low floor gas bus for example, as the air con units are mounted at the rear in the deckers, having seen them side by side, they aren't that much higher. The main issue is making them restricted to certain routes which don't have low bridges or low trees, that would be the larger concern, especially in Canberra and makes them less flexible to operate, such as the 14.5 "STAGs" have the same issue.

I think the sensible option is to allocate the large vehicles to the rapid corridor routes and use the standard buses on the suburban runs. Canberra doesn't have that many issues with buses clogging up roads, they just need to make sure they design the bus stations properly, which they don't, to ensure there is adequate space. I think TC just needs to design the shifts properly so that those high capacity vehicles are running where they're needed and useful, not on some suburban run through Farrer or Richardson at 1:30pm on a Tuesday with three people on it whilst people are standing on the intertowns.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: triumph on May 15, 2019, 10:31:58 pm
Quote from: triumph on April 15, 2019, 10:34:22 pmWas recently at an event attended by TC representatives.
It seems that a self contained electric bus order is largely dependent on confidence arising from the establishment in Australia of a suitable established industry/marketing setup.
Whilst some N America and European bus systems are already ordering/introducing self-contained electric vehicle fleets, the point was made that most (all?) of those current offerings are not airconditioned, so demand on the battery is considerably lower. Thus these vehicles' present technology may not be directly suitable for Australian service conditions and would need 'Australianising'. Hence the desire for an Australian industry/marketing being first established.

Electric buses (self contained) are coming closer. Volgren said yesterday they have a prototype on a BYD chassis almost complete and ready for a month's testing. It is expected to be available to the market in August. The prototype is said to have a range of 'over 250km' which would still appear to be well short of TC requirements. Volgren also have co-ordinated with other businesses to assist with ancilliary requirements such as charging facilities. So they are thinking holistically.

It might be anticipated that they are also looking into the possibilities of an offering meeting TC's needs.
 
Search Volgren in Google and go to their site for more info.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Busnerd on May 16, 2019, 02:27:22 pm
or click this link instead ;)

http://volgren.com.au/volgren-begins-electric-vehicle-charge/ (http://volgren.com.au/volgren-begins-electric-vehicle-charge/)
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: ajw373 on November 19, 2019, 06:57:09 am
Todays paper says 40 Scania's.

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6497245/40-new-diesel-powered-buses-to-join-transport-canberras-fleet/?cs=14225

What body and over what period of time, not so sure.

It does say first delivery late November. Doesn't give a year, so assume it means 2020.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Barry Drive on November 19, 2019, 09:26:28 am
More Scania K320UBs is not a surprise. Ordering 40 is though.

I assume they made a decision a while ago, but only announced it now. Whoever is building them may have already started, so a November 2019 delivery of the first one is credible.

Even though I would like to see the new Custom Endeavour body, it will most likely be Volgren or Bustech.

Once the contract is published we'll know for sure.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Bus 503 on November 19, 2019, 12:01:00 pm
Not really a fan of these K320UBs. As a passenger, I find the engine noise quite boring and not really that quiet either.
The K320UBs that are CB80s also are really loud and have a disturbing noise that comes when the bus is going moderately fast (prevalent when coming down Kings Avenue).
I understand that TC wants to simplify their fleet and mostly just have Scania engines, so buying more makes sense.
Anyone know, though, whether there are any "better" engines out there in Australia? Quieter ones or ones that just make a better noise? Personally, I love the sound of all of the CB60 fleet.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Sylvan Loves Buses on November 19, 2019, 01:37:05 pm
You forgot to mention the extremely-uncomfortable-rock-hard-foam-less seats.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Sylvan Loves Buses on November 19, 2019, 01:45:09 pm
Quote from: Bus 503 on November 19, 2019, 12:01:00 pmAnyone know, though, whether there are any "better" engines out there in Australia? Quieter ones or ones that just make a better noise? Personally, I love the sound of all of the CB60 fleet.

The Renault PR:180.2s that once lived here that are now in Tasmania have the best engines in Australia.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Barry Drive on November 19, 2019, 02:34:57 pm
That didn't take as long as I expected.

The contract (https://tenders.act.gov.au/ets/contract/view.do?id=63017&action=file&type=VARIATION&index=1) has been published: 40 Bustech VSTs to be delivered between now and 30 June 2020. 3 are due in November and 5 in December.

Wiki will be updated soon to show the delivery schedule. The contract makes no mention of fleet/rego numbers, so for now fleet numbers are unconfirmed but presumably will start at 682.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Stan butler on November 19, 2019, 07:53:34 pm
Quote from: Bus 503 on November 19, 2019, 12:01:00 pmThe K320UBs that are CB80s also are really loud and have a disturbing noise that comes when the bus is going moderately fast (prevalent when coming down Kings Avenue).

I think you will find the noise from the scanias, especially when going down hill, is the diff whining - not the engine.  The diffs in the scanias are very loud.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Busnerd on November 20, 2019, 12:56:53 pm
Volvo B7/B8's are very quiet from my experience.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: triumph on November 20, 2019, 10:50:51 pm
Quote from: Bus 503 on November 19, 2019, 12:01:00 pmThe K320UBs that are CB80s also are really loud and have a disturbing noise that comes when the bus is going moderately fast (prevalent when coming down Kings Avenue).

This noise issue has been commented on some time back. At that time 555 was very bad, uncomfortably so. It is very disappointing that TC has so little regard for passenger experience and either did not cover this in the contract specifications (or has failed to enforce contract requirements and require Scania to fix).

Another issue (previously commented on) which is apparently going to be inflicted on customers for the next 20 to 30 years is the harsh suspension, especially noticeable when (usually) lightly loaded. It seems no accident that drivers enjoy the provision of special 'suspension' seats. The provision of these seats is clear evidence that the vehicle suspension  is not good enough. The routes 57 and 58 highlight this in sections where the pavement is very uneven. 
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Busnerd on November 21, 2019, 03:47:13 pm
It is worth noting that basically every bus built since the mid 90's has had a suspension/air seat for the driver, hardly specific to Scania's and their suspension.

Do agree they are rougher compared to some other models, I found it the worst sitting in the very back of the front section of the Volgren artics are horrible.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: triumph on November 21, 2019, 10:20:17 pm
Quote from: Busnerd on November 21, 2019, 03:47:13 pmIt is worth noting that basically every bus built since the mid 90's has had a suspension/air seat for the driver, hardly specific to Scania's and their suspension.
Sadly, all that indicates effort for drivers (as it should be) but not for passengers, who are no doubt simply viewed as a source of costs. The consequence of not improving customer experience is obvious, poor patronage. Just think, a car commuter tries out the heavily hyped new network. Is subjected to jiggling and jolting, bouncing off kerbs/roundabouts, to jerky braking, and so on; all normal to regular users. Then compares the experience with the comfort of the car seat. No contest.

It is not only the big bumps at issue, the constant jiggling and minor jolts can be unbearable for customers with physical issues, illness, etc. I am aware of one regular user who is about to withdraw from some social activities purely because the jiggling and jerking of the bus is becoming too painfully hard for the user's back to tolerate.

Canberra is often said to have good roads. Clearly, those saying that are not bus travellers or are too young and fit to notice. Essentially, the present buses need smooth roads or the buses need to have suspensions to tolerate uneven surfaces. At present we are getting neither (a ride on rte 181 today showed how unsmooth the Parkway actually is).

Perhaps it is no accident that the media is reporting little extra patronage of buses but a large takeup (well ahead of estimates) for the Light Rail.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Sylvan Loves Buses on November 22, 2019, 05:03:56 am
Quote from: triumph on November 21, 2019, 10:20:17 pmCanberra is often said to have good roads.
Funny, someone told me that today too, but then followed it up by saying 'this was 30 years ago'. Canberra certainly isn't what it was.

Just to add to your second paragraph there. The Euro 5 MAN have a tendency to emit a high pitch tone when travelling at speeds of 60kph and higher. I'm sure I'm not the only one who experiences this - it's so bad when I hear it I have to stick my fingers in my ears to manually cut the decibels.
I understand where your guy is coming from, the comfort is certainly not what it was - The foam in the seats use to absorb a lot of the bouncing, the concrete-like seats just aren't doing anyone any favours now.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: triumph on November 23, 2019, 10:22:09 pm
Quote from: Barry Drive on November 19, 2019, 02:34:57 pmWiki will be updated soon to show the delivery schedule. The contract makes no mention of fleet/rego numbers, so for now fleet numbers are unconfirmed but presumably will start at 682.
Continuing from this number would mean reuse of 710 to 712 the recently trialled electric and hybrid electric buses. I wonder if there is any asset register and/or accounting standards that would require a clear gap in time such as a full financial or calendar year or both? This could lead to a gap in the sequence or the selection of a different number block.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Barry Drive on November 24, 2019, 07:34:41 am
I don't believe there is any impediment legally or systemically to reusing 710-712 so soon.

Whether they will or not is also unknown because it's not shown on the published contract. My guess is they won't. The registration of the Yutong will provide a clue to their intentions.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Busnerd on November 25, 2019, 07:27:05 am
No buses have air ride seats for passengers, the cost would be sky high and you'd have seats breaking all over the place as passengers fiddle with the functions and break them, not to mention the sound of 46 seats bouncing over a bump with the small air noise from every seat, and passengers sitting at the rear bouncing into the ceiling.

Route buses have never been 'comfortable' as they're designed for higher capacity and shorter journeys to say a coach which will have softer suspension and more seat padding. I do agree seat padding has gotten worse over the years but this is most buses and trains nowadays unless the operator specs semi coach seats, such as Red Bus Expess Iveco's and possibly the new Qcity Optimii that apparently have semi coach seats in them.

Canberra's roads are definitely much better than those in Sydney, I really struggle to think of any bus route here that would use roads so bad you'd end up with any kind of pain unless you had a pre-existing condition, the worst parts would be routes with multiple speed bumps and narrow turns resulting in in-experienced drivers hitting kerbs.

Presumably the high pitched sound you're hearing would be the diff, known as "diff whine" and happens at particular higher speeds in buses, much to the excitement of most gunzels to actually hear a nice loud sound from the diff/gearbox given most buses nowadays just drone along without making any interesting noises like the 0305 hubs for example.

A bus will never be competition for a private motor car however they aren't meant to be more comfortable, they are meant to be convenient and cheap and when road networks are designed properly, faster.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Bus 503 on January 31, 2020, 12:53:59 pm
Looks like TC is back to putting the "no entry" sign on the rear door of the new Bustechs.
See this photo (http://www.actbus.net/gallery/ACTION-Buses-Current/Scania-K320UB-VST/Bus-682/Bus682-WodenInter-1.jpg) of 682.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Sylvan Loves Buses on January 31, 2020, 02:06:07 pm
They better make sure they're never ever used on Rapid routes then.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: King of Buses on January 31, 2020, 08:21:00 pm
Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on January 31, 2020, 02:06:07 pmThey better make sure they're never ever used on Rapid routes then.

All good. They can't/won't do any routes with an "R" in front of the number. Just look at the destos.  ;)
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Barry Drive on April 25, 2020, 12:30:38 pm
The first 20 are now in service at Tuggeranong Depot (682-701); the next 20 will go to Belconnen Depot, with 702 entering service this week.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Snorzac on May 21, 2020, 12:28:10 am
BUS 708 was sighted in Hume early this afternoon on delivery to TC
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49916231441_8fb0b07882_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j3VJy2)BUS 708 (https://flic.kr/p/2j3VJy2) by Zac Mathes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zacmathes/), on Flickr
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: ajw373 on May 25, 2020, 02:03:22 pm
The more serious spotters amongst this group will laugh at me. But for many months now I have been seeing a new Scania with 1 of 40 new buses (or words to that effect on it). I thought it was weird how often I saw it but put it down to it standing out more, but like how I always used to see 946 with its different roof hatches.

However the other day I saw one of the fleet in the 700's and it finally clicked that all the new buses have the same graphic!

Anyway that got my OCD thinking, any other places I have seen graphics like that the first number increases with each delivery. So 6 of 40, 25 of 40 etc.

Whilst I appreciate to some extent what TC/Action are doing with the graphics if they are saying that the bus is one of many, then rather than saying it is 1 of 40 it should really say "One of 40" rather than "1 of 40".

That said I would rather they didn't have the graphic at all, or just keep it in the first and maybe last.
Title: Re: 40 Scanias: 2019-2020
Post by: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 25, 2020, 06:07:47 pm
Quote from: ajw373 on May 25, 2020, 02:03:22 pmit should really say "One of 40" rather than "1 of 40".

That said I would rather they didn't have the graphic at all, or just keep it in the first and maybe last.

I totally agree with you there.