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Network 2018

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Offline vnguyen

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Network 2018
« on: October 21, 2017, 09:32:38 PM »

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2017, 12:31:37 PM »
This is a map of the proposed Rapid "network" (via Twitter).



I offer no comment on this proposal because this forum has no filter for abusive language.

Offline Q

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2017, 03:41:29 PM »
this is annoying because when it starts all the 300's expect for 300,318,319 are likely to be canceled....

another note will theses routes run the quickest possible way or divert around other streets e.g R5 on some of the roads that the current 63/163/71/171 go on

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2017, 03:44:05 PM »
The only thing I would add is, where's the Belconnen to Tuggeranong and Tuggeranong to Airport via Monaro rapids?...


I offer no comment on this proposal because this forum has no filter for abusive language.
I can tell you detest the plan, I completely agree. :-X

another note will theses routes run the quickest possible way or divert around other streets
Probably the fastest 'streamlined' way. ACTION/TC have been really on the whole streamlined thing these past few years so it's likely that it would be that.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 04:25:00 PM »

this is annoying because when it starts all the 300's expect for 300,318,319 are likely to be canceled....
And 300, 318, and 319 as you know it won't exist either.


What's annoying is stage 2 light rail. The split of the blue rapid now is I have to say an alright move on their part - not good for commuters, not at all, but will I think ultimately be received better than cutting straight to 2 changeovers and an extended Woden-civic trip from the blue rapid at the commencement of stage 2. They've gotta take things away gradually, and they might just get away with it, if they continue to put in this level of thought.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 02:56:21 PM by Barry Drive »

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 11:38:14 AM »
where's the ... Tuggeranong to Airport via Monaro rapids?...
Possibly the only positive thing I can say about this proposal is reducing the number of Airport "rapids" to one every 15 minutes rather than two. No detail about how it will be achieved and what will happen to BBP & FBP services.

Now they just need to cull a few more Rapids and redirect the resources to providing decent suburban services.

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Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 01:03:26 PM »
Now that I think about it, I don't think airport rapids would be as idea, more like half or hourly would be more suitable.
I have suggested on a number of occasions to ACTION about an all-day 705 though (preferably without the time wasting weston detour) - a 20/30 minute service for that would be great i would imagine. Faster travel than the intertowns between the two main points of Canberra. Forgot to mention, Tug or Woden to Gungahlin too.

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2017, 01:12:40 PM »
Consider this: under this plan there will be a Rapid bus from City direct to Belconnen, Gungahlin, Woden, Airport and Molonglo. But not Tuggeranong.

Priorities?

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Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2017, 06:44:07 PM »
Well the past few networks have proven to me how little care there is for Tuggeranong Valley, so I should probably expect that.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 11:04:19 PM »
And what need is there for a Civic-Tuggeranong direct rapid? Tuggeranong town centre being at the far edge of the district means there's inevitably less demand through Tuggeranong than other town centres, and the majority of Tuggeranong residents commuting from civic will change over at Woden (as long as there are buses scheduled at that time).

For those that do go to Tuggeranong, going via Woden does make sense, it's not far off and doesn't extend the trip time significantly, while catering for much higher demand.


A Tuggeranong-Belconnen rapid would be of greater priority than a direct Tuggeranong-City rapid.

Offline King of Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 04:11:49 PM »
Looks like we're (somehow) in for a 7 day network next year...

Quote from: PTCBR Public Transport Association of Canberra
Transport Minister Meegan Fitzharris MLA just announced a seven day bus network in 2018, in the Assembly 👍

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PublicTransportAssociationOfCanberraPTCBR/permalink/1886619891349383/

Not sure how they plan on getting that to work with all these Rapid routes and the current operational setup for weekends... but we'll see.

Offline Busnerd

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2017, 04:38:53 PM »
I would asssume they mean having the same routes 7 days.

Obviously the former xpresso's and peak express services wouldn't operate but it would finally mean the end of those horrible loops after 12 years of them running.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2017, 07:40:41 PM »
My initial impression was that they were just referring to rapids being 7-days...

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 11:28:42 PM »
but it would finally mean the end of those horrible loops after 12 years of them running.

Gawd yes, those even numbered on even hours/odd numbered on odd hours loops services are the worst!

Offline 743

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2018, 01:36:51 PM »

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2018, 02:02:05 PM »
Quote
Canberrans say they'll walk farther for faster, more frequent buses

WTAF, I can't believe they're serious....
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 02:22:58 PM by Barry Drive »

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2018, 02:30:37 PM »
I may have more to say later, but the previous announcement of 15 minute rapids on weekends has been downgraded to 30 minutes.


The article in CT says the "seven day network" is still proposed, but this is not supported by any mention on the social media channels.

Time will tell.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 03:01:45 PM by Barry Drive »

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2018, 02:32:02 PM »
What the actual fuck, I can't believe they're serious....
It's perfectly reasonable.
For example, if my memory serves me right, when we stayed at Ashmore on the Gold Coast, we had a bus stop 500m away with hourly services, which were unreliable when we did catch it, being 13 minutes late. (overall, surfside buslines buses were quite bad with on-time running and service cancellations, with services significantly better here).
We had another bus stop 1km away with half-hourly bus services. We did catch that one a few times.
For the vast majority of the time, we walked 1.9kms to the light rail stop, where services were every 8 minutes and always reliable.
The is nothing more frustrating than only being able to arrive at a destination 30 mins early or late than you need to be - people see that as a waste of time, as you're there with nothing to do when you could have spent another 20 minutes at home. On the other hand, if you can arrive when you need to arrive, even if it means your trip taking a bit longer, it isn't percieved as a waste of time. All that time you're either walking or on the bus, being productive. If it comes to it, they can always tout the health benefits of walking further to the bus stop.


I guess one thing that I find interesting is that they had the exact same concept with the proposed Network 14 overhaul, which was scrapped after a massive outcry. Despite our attitude that we'd be willing to walk further for more frequent services, no one wants their stop to be the one that gets cut. Likewise, perhaps many of us lack the confidence that frequent services will really be delivered at a slightly further walk when your stop gets cut.


And the saddest thing about all this is that we have to make a comprimise between coverage or frequency and that we're happy to do so because that is the best that we as a population has come to expect from past and current public transport experiences.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2018, 05:05:23 PM »
Oh I love the idea of a 7 day timetable again, but what I've always believed in for a bus service esp like one the size of Canberra's, is that you should have a mixture of 'convenient'/flexible ANDdirect services, not just 'streamlined' like the disastrous network '12 removing an unspeakable number of bus stops from one network to the next (specifically 40 in the Wanniassa area).

It's rather ironic actually, cause for one of those changes, the route 80 in Fyshwick had the eastern part of the route taken out to make it more 'streamlined', and one of those bus stops sits right against the Mobility Matters shop (forcing those less able to walk an additional 300-350 meters both ways to acquire mobility aiding accessories), but of course TC/ACTION don't care for the elderly/disabled travellers who still catch the local services as much as their 'more important' customers so I guess it makes sense that they're just gonna destroy everything cause they obviously enjoy watching those less able to suffer...


Quote from: Busfanatic101
The is nothing more frustrating than only being able to arrive at a destination 30 mins early or late than you need to be - people see that as a waste of time
I thought with mobile phones now days that wasn't a problem... jk

No of course I understand that, but even with the routes like the current 6 that is every 15 minutes (30 at night) - if you've got the perfect connection, it can be screwed over so much if the driver is 5 minutes early or late.
Although it is convenient that it is slightly faster to get from location to location, it's still hell trying to walk to places that still exist that people go to regularly that still have bus stops, but aren't serviced anymore cause of ignorant network designers.

Offline Bus 400

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2018, 08:50:32 PM »
What's the funniest part of the survey results is that a majority of people don't mind walking further for a quick bus service. While the suburb that had the highest respnders was Moncreiff (https://yoursay.act.gov.au/rapid-network-2018)

Plus the top 2 destinations are City & Civic. Surprised Woden, Phillip, Tuggeranong, Greenway weren't the next 4 options.

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Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 03:39:01 PM »
I have no problem with more frequent services. All suburban routes should be returned to 30 minute day time frequencies, and the 30 minute frequency should continue until 8pm.

I have no problem with faster journeys - if that were to mean services to outer suburbs (such as Dunlop and Duffy) travel through fewer suburbs to the Town Centre. Although I doubt that's what they mean by it.

But as for "straightening out routes", this can't be done since our roads were intentionally designed to not follow a grid pattern. And "fewer routes running more often" contradicts faster journeys. The best way to provide faster (more direct) journeys is to have more routes, not fewer.

So, what next? Where is the fat in the current suburban route network? I can't think of many areas which would result in longer walking distances but faster journeys (not significantly faster anyway). But here's a few possibilities:

  • Bingley Cres, Fraser (just run Daley Cr)
  • Macrossan Cres, Latham
  • consolidate services to Higgins
  • Bruce - Fern Hill & CIT
  • Cossington Smith Cr, Lyneham
  • consolidate Lyneham Shops services
  • streamline Route 7 equivalent through Braddon
  • reduce service to Duntroon & ADFA - will depend on what happens with Route 11
  • Livingston Av, Kambah
  • run only one side of Newman-Morris Cct, Oxley
  • Bugden Av, Gowrie
  • Jim Pike / Callaway, Gordon
Have I missed any?

Also, the Media Release mentions "planning [is] underway to build a better seven-day network". Which doesn't mean it will be delivered in 2018.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 08:18:22 PM by Barry Drive »

Offline King of Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2018, 10:02:45 PM »
While there are many places where services could/should be made more direct, I'm not convinced streamlining every route where possible is quite the right way to go, as you'll lose patronage in areas where people have to go further to catch buses, regardless of how frequent you run services as people will begin to find it more convenient to drive or find a different way to their destination. Elderly patrons may also find it difficult to reach services and will therefore be placed in a difficult situation due to being less mobile.

As Barry Drive said, most circumstances where routes would/could be cut from wouldn't improve travel times that much.

The main issue I see is that there is a considerable amount of unnecessary route duplication in the current network, or duplication that doesn't work given poor route timings and spacing. Fix that, or improve it in cases where duplication is unavoidable, and you're making a step in the right direction. While I don't totally agree with the Rapid Network plan, it should hopefully help reduce some duplication in some areas, provided services terminate and connect in along these Rapid corridors, rather than duplicating them for significant portions, where possible.

Bringing back 30 min (or better) day time frequencies for all suburban services would definitely be an improvement (and a big boost which would make PT more appealing), and it could possibly be achieved by increasing the number of through shifts and reducing the number of broken shifts (which does mean more shifts as a whole, yes, but more shifts operating through the middle of the day, too). But, my point being, it might be possible with roughly the same number of drivers and the current fleet (plus the next 40 buses, which will help). Once Woden Depot is operational there should be no excuse for services to operate hourly instead of every 30 mins (or better) during off peak on weekdays.

Offline Bus 400

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2018, 11:45:42 PM »
If the plan is to run on demand services, you could cut Lyons out of the current 21/22. Or even cut the 88 to on demand.

On even have one bus route go through Bonython & add bus stops on Drakeford Dr.



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Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2018, 12:06:44 AM »
@KoB Agreed, and much better put.

If anything, I hope at some point they give us back the hour later services we had, cause it's difficult enjoying life outside of work/school with friends (if you have any), parties, movies, conventions, graduations, events, etc without being forced to leave early or get a lift/taxi/uber to get home at a time when buses use to run - more specifically the suburban routes as the blue rapids somewhat still hold that title.

Quote from: King of Buses
The main issue I see is... route duplication in the current network... poor route timings and spacing. Fix that
For someone who use to ride bike living in the northern Tuggeranong area with much choice this had become quite an annoyance although there was quite a choice. Looking at this from Network '14 (with a slight improvement to the 64 in 2015, and combining 163 to the mayhem in 2015).

For someone like myself who would be trying to get home after evening classes nearly everyday from CIT for the past couple of years, and without getting the frustration of having to bore myself with a 300 every time and riding/walking more than a kilometre to get home, I would often find myself choosing between buses. Of course it was more interesting for me with my bike cause I had a choice of either Scania this, MAN that, and "oh look a Renault yes please!", but for someone in need of a bus to get home at these times (and it was just as bad from Tuggeranong too including 63/71 due to infrequency of no 163/171 from T) even with a possible walk from another route that is somewhat not too distant, this would be a real pain in the butt esp if the person is running late, is less able to between platforms cause of drivers enjoying their evening meal breaks and leaving at the exact same time together 10 minutes later, or even if the driver/bus never turns up - forcing a possible hour wait, or sorry walk home several kilomters from a 300...

Since 2014, the stupidness of multiple routes going mostly the same way for 20-40% of their route at the same time (for Tuggeranong residents) has since been improved somewhat for network '17, but it still lacks later services and better choices.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2018, 05:41:46 PM »

So, what next? Where is the fat in the current suburban route network? I can't think of many areas which would result in longer walking distances but faster journeys (not significantly faster anyway). But here's a few possibilities:
  • Bingley Cres, Fraser (just run Daley Cr)
  • Macrossan Cres, Latham
  • consolidate services to Higgins
  • Bruce - Fern Hill & CIT
  • Cossington Smith Cr, Lyneham
  • consolidate Lyneham Shops services
  • streamline Route 7 equivalent through Braddon
  • reduce service to Duntroon & ADFA - will depend on what happens with Route 11
  • Livingston Av, Kambah
  • run only one side of Newman-Morris Cct, Oxley
  • Bugden Av, Gowrie
  • Jim Pike / Callaway, Gordon
Have I missed any?
Other possibilities may include:
  • Renmark/Eucumbene (Duffy, 25)
  • Louisa Lawson (Gilmore, 67)
  • Templestowe Ave, (Conder, 19/319)
  • Goreen/Euree St, (Campbell, 9)
  • Palmer St (Garran, 3)
  • Moonlight Av (Gungahlin, 58
  • Throsell/Dunstan (Curtin, 2) - could be complemented by a stop on the now duplicated Cotter Rd on 182 and xpressos near underpass (-35.315554, 149.077254)
Some routes are also highly redundant, and could be eliminated with a slight tweaking of existing routes, which in theory could then double the frequency of the retained route
  • 66 - slight alteration of 65 (add 2 mins) through chisholm.
  • Merge 63 and 64 - follow 64 through Wanniassa (eliminate Kambah), replace charlston with Barraclough, Cockcroft
  • Consolidate routes 9, 10 and 11 into two routes
  • etc. etc.

Offline King of Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2018, 08:15:37 PM »
   
  • Templestowe Ave, (Conder, 19/319)

*angry react*  >:(

What they cut will come down to the amount of patronage, too. Templestowe has quite a bit of patronage, plus it's quite a distance (uphill) from/to Tom Roberts/the one stop that is in use Jane Sutherland/Paperbark to/from the top section of Conder - particularly the top of Eaglemont Retreat. What they COULD streamline is to operate via Humphrey St, in lieu of Jane Sutherland/Tom Roberts/Templestowe. You'd only gain 1 minute at most from that, though. I do not believe Humphrey St is approved for 14.5m buses, however (but it probably could be).

The other thing to bear in mind is that some routes/streets might seem pointless and targets to be cut, but many of those are the only way to get to other streets which need to be serviced to allow access to suburban shops, schools, or the other facilities.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2018, 09:39:11 PM »
*angry react*  >:(
That's what they all say  :P ;) ::)  "oh no not my street, so much patronage, so far from the alternative bus stop"...


Point taken  ;D


Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2018, 09:41:28 AM »
Yeah, the challenge is to remove "indirect" running which has little patronage and which can deliver more efficient services.

Some loop streets like Louisa Lawson and Templestowe are too significant to cut (IMO). Whereas Jim Pike / Callaway is an easy target, as is Livingston.

Goreen / Euree in Reid, while lowly patronised wouldn't achieve much savings if the 9 was redirected to run along Currong. (Also there's no frequent or rapid service nearby.)

I agree about the idea to consolidate 9 10 & 11 into 2 routes. I'm curious though as to where the Airport rapid service will terminate.

Offline Bus 400

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2018, 08:03:51 PM »
So a bit more information has been noted in the Legislative Assembly.

The plan is for rapid buses to run until midnight Monday to Saturday nights & 22:30 on Sunday night.

The light rail is to run til 22:30 Sunday to Thursday & 1am Friday & Saturday nights.

If you have a spare 30 odd minutes or more than 3 hours or are having trouble sleeping, you watch it all at http://aod.parliament.act.gov.au/A70232

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Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2018, 12:16:23 AM »
Meegan Fitzharris has replied to a comment on facebook stating "new bus network out for consultation this month."
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 09:05:01 AM by Barry Drive »

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2018, 01:00:17 PM »
Where is this? I just had a look through TC's and her FB page, and I didn't see anything.

Offline Buzz Killington

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2018, 06:35:41 PM »
It’s on the second most recent post on her page (shared TC post about the wrapped trams)

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2018, 01:06:08 PM »
Some details of the new network (herein after known as "Network 19") have been released.

Canberra Times article

Proposed Rapids have been changed as follows:
R1 Gungahlin to City (Tram)
R2 Fraser / Dunlop to COC via Belconnen, City & Barton
R3 Spence to Airport via Belconnen & City
R4 Lanyon to City via Tuggeranong & Woden
R5 Lanyon to City via Calwell, Erindale, Woden, Barton & Russell
R6 Weston to City via Woden, Manuka, Kingston & Barton
R7 Weston to City via Cotter Road
R8 Belconnen to Gungahlin
R9 Belconnen to Watson via Bruce & Dickson
R10 Molonglo to City via Cotter Road



All Xpressos to be removed.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:37:54 AM by Barry Drive »

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2018, 02:41:08 PM »
I note 101 also seems to have disappeared, along with 'route 3' through ANU.
Also a loop service from Cooleman Court to connect to a rapid for Woden commuters. And Kambah services that travel via Cooleman Court to Woden, providing a Tuggeranong to Weston Creek connection. Some similarities to my network proposal from a few months back 😄

Offline vnguyen

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2018, 04:49:59 PM »
I've also noticed that tourist rouet 81 is missing from the map.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2018, 05:31:18 PM »
Full network map and additional details now available at canberrabuses.com.au and https://www.yoursay.act.gov.au/rapid-bus-network
The network is open for consultation until 12 August.

Network Map: https://canberrabuses.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Canberra-full-network-map.pdf

Offline Bus 400

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2018, 05:32:38 PM »
As have been said by ANU staff, the current bus network doesn't work for them & the over full carparks prove that. No bus service isn't going to improve that.

There are a couple of weird short routes such as 65 from Coolemon Court to Chapman & a couple of others.

No idea why the Kambah runs swap sides & go via Coolemon Court, but both have been extended which kinda goes against the more direct routes that's being swung around. Surprise that don't terminate at Weston & force change to the rapids like most people will.

Offline Busnerd

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2018, 05:55:32 PM »
Assume the via Cooleman Court thing is to *possibly* give them a "Direct" way to get to Tuggeranong without going via Woden, the old 60/62 swapping sides is weird, but again, I guess it's a way to connect both sides of the suburb as both routes never really went near each other, so at least someone wanting to get to the other side of Kambah kind of can now.

Will be interesting to see what the timetables are like when released.

Offline Toyota Camry

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2018, 09:41:43 PM »
In my opinion, there will be a lot of people that will switch to driving, either to a park and ride or the whole way to Civic, with the loss of Xpresso services; many of the public servants using Xpressos will not be interested in taking a local bus to a bus station then changing buses when it takes 20 minutes longer than their previous direct service; or 30 minutes longer than driving.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2018, 10:07:26 PM »
In my opinion, there will be a lot of people that will switch to driving, either to a park and ride or the whole way to Civic, with the loss of Xpresso services; many of the public servants using Xpressos will not be interested in taking a local bus to a bus station then changing buses when it takes 20 minutes longer than their previous direct service; or 30 minutes longer than driving.
Any examples of where it might take 20 minutes extra due to the loss of an Xpresso?


From my preliminary look at the network, it seems workable and has the right idea, although not entirely convinced with all the frequency projections of the rapid routes, and its final success would be highly dependent on the frequency of the local services (which seem generally better done although there are some odd routes here and there). My current commute scenarios would pretty much all face some delay (or remain the same) from the largely removed redundancies of the current network, but I can think of many other previously difficult commute scenarios that would be much easier and believe this is a step in the right direction that will be good in the long run as the capacity of the network and fleet are increased. I'm sure there'll be plenty of backlash though... looking forward to seeing the comments on the facebook posts.




Offline Snorzac

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2018, 10:18:55 PM »
Example of a 20min time loss is City to Kippax, I live on the corner of Southern Cross and Florey Dr, 743 the other night left 12 min after the 313 and arrived 8min before it at the stop I use (before it goes into Kippax)

Offline Bus 400

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2018, 10:39:33 PM »
Youndo have people from Gold Creek/Nicholls who want to go to Belconnen or people that work in Mitchell & want to go to the City will now be forced to go into Gungahlin in the opposite direction & change.

At the moment just many people head into Gungahlin as those that leave  early in the morning, light rail & bus cuts won't encourage them ono buses.

The best comment I've heard from multiple people is "Canberra's bus system doesn't work" & "changes to the network make it easier to drive". This'll never change & patronge numbers will go up with forced transfers, the buses will still be empty outside peak & carparks will still be full all day.
How many people from Denman Prospect want to go to the Citt at 09:15, 9:30 & 09:45 & same goes for people from Cooleman Court?  Probably 4 people each. While it has been noted all ready full buses are being cut in the Belconnen to City corridor & more people are being forced into this corridor.

I  think my rant is over for now, now to put forward some changes.

Offline Toyota Camry

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2018, 11:39:56 PM »
Any examples of where it might take 20 minutes extra due to the loss of an Xpresso?
From Civic to Hawker Shops in the afternoon, there are three current options;

Route 744 leaves 5:20pm, arrives Springvale Drive & Belconnen Way (behind the shops) at 5:36pm

Route 717 leaves 5:14pm, arrives Hawker Shops 5:38pm

Route 313 leaves at 5:13pm, 7 minutes to change buses at Westfield Bus Station between 5:38pm until Route 17 leaves at 5:45pm, arrives Hawker Shops at 5:55pm

As the latter journey, but with new route numbers will be the only journey possible in the new network; how many commuters will give up a 16 minute trip for a 42 minute one?

In this instance, it is also possible that the journey could become a 62 minute one; this is likely if the rapid service is delayed and the connection is missed. For a regular commuter; this may occur once every two or three weeks.

Offline Sylvan Loves Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2018, 02:20:44 AM »
From the early post yesterday I would've posted this but couldn't due to reasons...

Quote
All Xpressos to be removed.

Well that will suck. No more direct access from Tuggeranong straight to Belconnen (and vice versa) when needed, and there will have to be a bus exchange just to get from Tuggeranong/Woden to Belconnen? Geez, it's like 2008 all over again but affecting the necessary routes instead of the alternative...

______________________________
I have now returned to view your discussions, plus properly looked at the proposed map and I can say.

For starters, going from the small images on the Canberra Times' article, wtf is going on for Kambah, although I love the idea that we'd finally get a service direct to Weston, the fact that neither of them will be direct to Woden anymore (supposedly) and they swap sides of Kambah several times is dumb and imo unnecessary, esp given that there's no sign of a bus stop being put in for the second cross-over and they're fine as they are now and have been for the past 20 years.

Looking over the full map just now, I'm starting to get TRIGGERED by many things:
  • Firstly, half of the routes look to be loop services for south Canberra, and if they're as bad as they are now, we're really in the sh*ter.
  • A whole new revamp of the route numbers, although I thought about it during the day, I guess it's been 20 years since the last one, it's still gonna be confusing and hard to get use to for quite some time.
  • The limit of access to areas such as Hume, Phillip, Mitchell (again) from the city, other places from interchanges, Symonston, the other parts of Kambah for those less able and just want to get to Woden the same ways they do now, most of Wanniassa again just like 2008, Acton, tourist locations, and many more that I could go on about, but I won't.... - I'll complain about that to someone when they get the second consultation thing up.
  • Oh and the fact that they're favouring Belconnen and Gungahlin for the umpteenth time again, looks great up there... They love Belconnen and Gungahlin, they don't give a rat's *** about the rest of us...
Oh wait, Gungahlin has loop services too... whoop tee do for them...
  • They're introducing letters on the displays now, can't we just have single numbered loop routes instead of trying to figure out if the 19 goes on the odd numbered hour the anticlockwise way, and the 20 on the even numbered hour going clockwise?... Don't answer that...

GEEEZ....... **** me...

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2018, 10:15:20 AM »
So to the predictions:

But here's a few possibilities:

  • Bingley Cres, Fraser (just run Daley Cr) [NO]
  • Macrossan Cres, Latham [YES]
  • consolidate services to Higgins [YES]
  • Bruce - Fern Hill & CIT [YES*]
  • Cossington Smith Cr, Lyneham [NO]
  • consolidate Lyneham Shops services [YES*]
  • streamline Route 7 equivalent through Braddon [YES*]
  • reduce service to Duntroon & ADFA - will depend on what happens with Route 11 [NO]
  • Livingston Av, Kambah [YES]
  • run only one side of Newman-Morris Cct, Oxley [YES]
  • Bugden Av, Gowrie [NO]
  • Jim Pike / Callaway, Gordon [NO]
* Yes, but that wasn't what I meant

Other possibilities may include:
  • Renmark/Eucumbene (Duffy, 25) [NO]
  • Louisa Lawson (Gilmore, 67) [NO]
  • Templestowe Ave, (Conder, 19/319) [NO]
  • Goreen/Euree St, (Campbell, 9) [yes*]
  • Palmer St (Garran, 3) [YES]
  • Moonlight Av (Gungahlin, 58) [YES]
  • Throsell/Dunstan (Curtin, 2) [NO]
* Half yes

Going through the map, they've added (or re-opened) terminuses at:
  • Casey Shops
  • Fraser East
  • Watson
  • Southlands, Mawson
  • Chisholm Shops
  • Calwell Shops
  • and will need a Bus Station at Weston

And closed terminuses at:
  • Fairbairn Park
  • Kingston Railway
  • Lithgow St, Fyshwick
  • AMC, Hume
  • Farrer
  • Gordon

I note 101 also seems to have disappeared, along with 'route 3' through ANU.
This despite the minister claiming the route as a success.

Last time they did public consultation, they re-instated services to Moonlight Av, Fawkner St and the Railway Station (correct me if I'm wrong on that one) as well as the 732. Why have they not learned from that?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 11:50:46 AM by Barry Drive »

Offline vnguyen

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2018, 11:17:14 AM »
I'm a missing something here or is R10 going to be a rapid loop service from the city? I don't see any terminus at a Denman Prospect.

Offline vnguyen

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2018, 11:24:32 AM »
I'm a missing something here or is R10 going to be a rapid loop service from the city? I don't see any terminus at a Denman Prospect.

It was be much easier to combine R9 and R10 together and make R10 a Tuggeranong to Belcomen rapid via the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2018, 11:38:34 AM »
I'm a missing something here or is R10 going to be a rapid loop service from the city? I don't see any terminus at a Denman Prospect.
I don't think you have missed it, although I did. It makes sense to be an out and back loop, although that will mess with NXTBUS. I do like the idea of splitting the old 182 into two routes, even if it does remove a more direct service to Weston and Woden.

I've also noticed that R10 is listed as 30 minutes off peak and hourly at evenings, so it doesn't really qualify as "Rapid" (or "Frequent") anyway. Perhaps it should be called "10".

Transport Canberra have (tried to) justify the removal of all Xpressos as follows:

Quote from: Transport Canberra Facebook comment
Canberrans have told us that they prefer more frequent, flexible and reliable journeys. In order to provide higher frequency on local and Rapid Routes, all Xpresso routes will be discontinued in the new network. This will make travel to town centres and other key locations more frequent, where connections can be made to the Rapid Network.

By providing an all-day network instead of a peak focused network, the same journey can be made throughout the day. If you take public transport to work at 8am and need to get home earlier than usual, you can make that same journey home at any time. It means you will not have to rely on a single bus service to make your journey, with more options available across the day.

Many of Canberra’s Park and Ride facilities will also be serviced by frequent all day bus services giving you more flexible travel choices

We would encourage you to provide feedback through the Your Say page to assist with the planning of the New Network. TC

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2018, 12:35:49 PM »
Youndo have people from Gold Creek/Nicholls who want to go to Belconnen or people that work in Mitchell & want to go to the City will now be forced to go into Gungahlin in the opposite direction & change.

How many people from Denman Prospect want to go to the Citt at 09:15, 9:30 & 09:45 & same goes for people from Cooleman Court?  Probably 4 people each. While it has been noted all ready full buses are being cut in the Belconnen to City corridor & more people are being forced into this corridor.

I think my rant is over for now, now to put forward some changes.



Gold Creek and Nicholls would be ok if they put in a changeover on Gundaroo Dr.
While the new Ashley Dr stops are shown, it clearly does not reflect the final situation in regards to stops - for example, they aren't going to have a dozen one-way stops in Bonner and Amaroo on a 2-way loop as depicted.
The same *should* apply to Kambah with an additional stop on their crossover.


Weston Creek/Molonglo Rapids are a bit dodgy, perhaps the 71 could go to belco rather than Woden since it goes through Cooleman Court anyway, and scrap R10, who can transfer to R7 or 66/67. This would create a connection to belco for Tuggeranong, Weston Creek, and Molonglo without making anything really worse off than what is proposed.








Offline King of Buses

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Re: Network 2018
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2018, 01:26:37 PM »
Last time they did public consultation, they re-instated services to Moonlight Av, Fawkner St and the Railway Station (correct me if I'm wrong on that one) as well as the 732. Why have they not learned from that?

And Farrer Terminus, I seem to recall.

IMO, Moonlight Ave would be fine if there was a stop on the R1 at Wizard St, but there isn't, so I'd probably send the 21/22 from Gecko Way straight across Anthony Rolfe Ave all the way down to Gozzard St (or, once Ernest Cavanagh goes through to Kate Crace, the service could use Kate Crace then Ernest Cavanagh and go into Gungahlin Interchange that way). A set of stops on Mapleton Ave could also prove helpful as a replacement for the Moonlight Ave service, although I'd prefer that that section was serviced by the 21/22 rather than the 18. I reckon that you could get the 21/22 to criss cross Flemington Rd three times (at Mapleton, Nullarbor and Well Station), make the 18 essentially the same as the current 57 to Mitchell, and then run the 18 only during daylight hours (is there really a need for buses to Mitchell in the evening? There is that section of Hoskins St to consider I suppose, but the 21 could use Oodgeroo and Hoskins (22 can't, thanks to the left in left out at the Gungahlin Dr end of Oodgeroo), and maybe a set of stops on Well Station Dr near Hoskins St would work, too. Though, reducing the 18s hours of operation might go against their philosophy of every route operating all the time (if they resurrect some Xpressos, there isn't any reason they could do this sort of thing and make it a daytime and peak only service).

The 52 IMO doesn't need to go to the CBR Centre stop, nor duplicate the 53 to Limestone Ave. I feel it should use Mort, Girrahween, Torrens and Ipima despite most of this region being within easy reach of the R1. It is only supposedly an hourly service off peak, so that shouldn't matter so much if it went through there.

I'm not certain what they plan on doing with route 56, as I don't think it needs to go to Fyshwick at all hours of the day. Perhaps it could terminate at Narrabundah Terminus or the Railway Station after 1900 or something? The R2 can continue to COC at all hours to service the Canberra Ave corridor if need be. Though it could probably get away with using the Railway Station as a terminus, too. While on the topic of the 56, I'm not sure why it needs to go to Russell (or Kingston, really, given connections at Manuka), so possibly it could use Canberra Ave, then National Cct, like the old 6, then possibly to Parliament House (Federation Mall) and down Commonwealth Ave from up there?

With the 732, even if that doesn't come back as an Xpresso, the 58 could go from Strickland Cres straight to the City, which would allow a direct City to Deakin service too, to make up for the R5 being removed from this section after it was originally proposed to service this area. A new 59 could pretty much follow the current 1 between Woden and the City for Yarralumla, except via the same route as the new 57 in Parkes after Parliament House. The lack of anywhere to really connect for services to Barton on the 57/58 is odd though (other than around the corner on State Circle from the Melbourne Ave stops, which isn't really that practical for most I'd imagine). Unsure how to improve this without improving the stop setup there. If the 56 was modified to service Parliament House rerouting the 57/58 down National Cct would work, but that would increase travel time more on the 58 - wouldn't make much difference to the new 57 over the current 3 though.

The loss of Belconnen to Nicholls/Federaton Square/Casey area is understandable, but I feel the 23/24 loop isn't quite the right way to replace it. There isn't anywhere on Gundaroo Dr for anyone to connect to the R8 at present is my main problem, so maybe for that just goes to Crace. perhaps maybe going Grampians, Nudurr, Gundaroo, Abena, Redruth, Langtree, Galore, Abena, Gundaroo, Nudurr, Grampians from/to Gungahlin could work, allowing connections to the R8 on Gundaroo Dr, but it would slightly increase time to Gungahlin, I suppose (depending on where in Crace you were, I suppose).
As for Federation Square and Ngunnawal, I'd suggest a Belconnen - Fed Sq - Casey - Horse Park - Moncrieff - Mirrabei Dr service, meaning the 23/24 could becoming a Casey to Gungahlin service that has Belconnen connections at Casey or Gungahlin.
This also would allow the 25/26 to become Gungahlin to Taylor only (via Amaroo), connecting at Moncrieff for service to Casey or Belconnen. The 27 could be rerouted via Gungahlin Dr past John Paul CLG instead on the weird thing it does presumably just to service Ngunnwal Shops (perhaps it should not come from the Mirrabei Dr end, but rather from Gungahlin Dr, then Amagula, Gurrang, Wanganeen, Unaipon, Burramurra, Jabanungga, Wanganeen, Gungahlin Dr to Casey. The 28 could then go via Unaipon and Burramurra to the top part of Casey (I don't think that run would need to go via Ngunnawal shops, just Ngunnawal PS).

I reckon there are ways to make the 19/20 and 25/26 work better in Amaroo than what they've got too. Switching the 25/26 to service Burdekin and Mirrabei, with the 19/20 doing Horse Park and Katherine could improve those routes. From Amaroo Shops the 19/20 could even go straight across to Roden Cutler, Essie Coffey, Henry Williams, Mabo to Bonner Shops, William Cooper, Jessie, then through Forde as proposed - would improve Bonner coverage, improve the run time, only disadvantaging 2 sets of stops in Forde (slightly).

The 41/42 in the Melba area seems a bit funny to me too. I'd send the 42 via Copland rather than Ginninderra, then back down Alpen and Alfred Hill to Kingsford Smith, though this wouldn't service Melba Shops. Sending the 41 down Chinner Cres could work as a way to service that. The 41 could easily service the other side of Shakespeare Cres, too.

One of my main dislikes though is the R2 going between Kippax and Fraser, and the R3 between Belconnen and Spence - these could easily be suburban services that connect into these Rapids at Kippax or Belconnnen. After all, what makes Macgregor, Dunlop, Fraser, Spence and part of Florey so special that they deserve a direct and frequent Rapid bus to the City, while every other Belconnen suburb (and almost every other suburb in Canberra) needs to change at a nearby group or town centre?

I'm glad to see that Annabelle View will be used in Coombs, too. Never understood why they didn't do that in the first place. Still unsure why Macfarlane Burnet on the 44 doesn't have a service all the way around, then into the older section of Macgregor via Cannan Cres, especially as it would connect with the R2 at Macgregor shops if timed right.

Also glad Templestowe Ave will continue to be serviced, but I think the Lanyon to Tuggeranong section of the 80 needs some work - perhaps it should go via either North Gordon and Bonython (rather than the 81, given Conder/Banks pax can change at Lanyon), with the 81 going direct via Woodcock. Alternatively, leave the 81 as shown and send the 80 via Isabella Plains, shortening the 79 (this would affect school services to Mackillop CLG (Isabella Plains) though.

It was be much easier to combine R9 and R10 together and make R10 a Tuggeranong to Belcomen rapid via the Tuggeranong Parkway.

The R9 wouldn't make sense to combine, not the R10, as that would make a Watson to Belconnen and a Denman Prospect to City service a Watson to City via Belconnen and Molonglo service?

I do imagine the R10 will eventually continue to Belconnen though via the FRC. Either that or it will terminate at Molonglo Town Centre, and the R8 will be extended to Molonglo and ideally Cooleman Court the Tuggeranong. In the meantime, I reckon the R7 could be extended to Tuggeranong via Namatjira Dr, and the 70/71 remain the same or similar to existing routes 60/62, with connections on Sulwood Dr and Drakeford Dr for travel to Cooleman Court (and the City, even). The R10 and 66/67 also need to take into account servicing Denman Village Shops, too, which I believe should be open when this network commences.

The loss of Xpressos seems to be the biggest problem though, and while I can see why a lot of them would be removed (owing to duplication, and trying to boost boarding figures), I think some new peak only direct routes could be introduced as new Xpressos. These don't necessarily need to operate through suburbia, but they need to connect to suburban routes to allow a trip to the City with only one transfer maximum.
I was considering maybe suggesting a Kippax to City route (could be numbered XR2?) that would be essentially the current 743, but from Kippax (perhaps every 10 mins is overkill, but every 20 with a full STAG or artic allocation might be enough).
An XR4 (or something) could run from Lanyon to the City directly, too, perhaps deviating via Tuggeranong as well (every 20 mins should be plenty on this one).
A 705 and 749 replacement would be useful too, ideally with improved frequency and operating hours, and perhaps a trial of Gungahlin to Woden or Tuggeranong Xpressos, too, allowing a direct link between all Town Centres in peak?

I feel a Tuggeranong - Chisholm - Hume - COC - Newcastle St (Fyshwick) - Airport service could be useful too, but I'm not sure how it'd work in terms of whether it'd just be a peak service (allowing connections at COC to the R2, and to the R3 at CBR Airport), or what. A Woden - Symonston - Hume Xpresso be enough though.

That's not everything I have to say about this proposal, but that's all I feel like saying at the moment. Overall, I'm not against a fair amount of the route structure, there are just ways to improve a lot of it still - particularly with extra options in peak. I am yet to actually provide TC with feedback other than a few small things, so any feedback on my suggestions is welcome.