Majura Parkway bus services

Started by Toyota Camry, July 05, 2019, 09:00:23 PM

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Toyota Camry

There is a significant gap in the network that no bus services operate using the Majura Parkway, which could provide express travel between Gungahlin and destinations including Campbell Park, Russell, Majura Park, Canberra Airport, Brindabella Park, Fairbarn Park, Canberra Airport, Fyshwick and Woden. Over the weekend, I will be designing concepts for new bus services to operate using this road between Gungahlin Place and major destinations; suggestions and feedback are welcome.

triumph

Quote from: Toyota Camry on July 05, 2019, 09:00:23 PMThere is a significant gap in the network that no bus services operate using the Majura Parkway, which could provide express travel between Gungahlin and destinations including Campbell Park, Russell, Majura Park, Canberra Airport, Brindabella Park, Fairbarn Park, Canberra Airport, Fyshwick and Woden. Over the weekend, I will be designing concepts for new bus services to operate using this road between Gungahlin Place and major destinations; suggestions and feedback are welcome.
And another significant gap is the Great Barton Highway Divide, crossed now only by R8. Travelling from the Northern Belconnen region to even the adjoining Gungahlin suburb of Nicholls (and Federation Square) involves travelling to the Belconnen Interchanges, changing to R8 and, once across the Great Divide, changing again to rte 24! Particularly irritating if coming from nearby suburbs such as Evatt and Spence. What is needed is a cross country service along Kuringa Dr and Clarrie Hermes Dr.. But don't hold your breath.

 

Toyota Camry

154 inbound; this service is proposed to operate between Gungahlin Place and Canberra Airport during peak times; operating via Harrison, Throsby, Majura Parkway, Majura Park and Brindabella Business Park: https://www.mappedometer.com/?maproute=756431

154 outbound; this service is proposed to operate between Canberra Airport and Gungahlin Place during peak times; operating via Brindabella Business Park, Majura Park, Majura Road, Throsby and Harrison: http://www.mappedometer.com/?maproute=756432

156 inbound; this service is proposed to operate between Gungahlin Place and Fyshwick Terminus during peak times; operating via Harrison, Throsby, Majura Parkway and Canberra Outlet Centre: http://www.mappedometer.com/?maproute=756433

156 outbound; this service is proposed to operate between Fyshwick Terminus and Gungahlin Place during peak times; operating via Canberra Outlet Centre, Majura Parkway, Throsby and Harrison: http://www.mappedometer.com/?maproute=756434

This plan would require the recommissioning of Fyshwick Terminus; consideration was given to terminating the service at Canberra Outlet Centre, however this would have required passengers from South Fyshwick to interchange.

Toyota Camry

Quote from: triumph on July 05, 2019, 10:37:16 PMAnd another significant gap is the Great Barton Highway Divide, crossed now only by R8. Travelling from the Northern Belconnen region to even the adjoining Gungahlin suburb of Nicholls (and Federation Square) involves travelling to the Belconnen Interchanges, changing to R8 and, once across the Great Divide, changing again to rte 24! Particularly irritating if coming from nearby suburbs such as Evatt and Spence. What is needed is a cross country service along Kuringa Dr and Clarrie Hermes Dr.. But don't hold your breath.

 
I have identified a potential solution to this issue in the combination of routes 28 and 43; passengers for Spence Terminus would need to travel exclusively using rapid R3, route 43 would no longer turn left at Copland Dr, it would continue straight prior to a right turn at Kuringa Dr, continuing as Clarrie Hermes Dr, before a left turn at Kingsland Pde to Casey, route 28 would remain unaltered, however the new service would be renumbered as route 35, this is a 'halfway number' between 35 and 43.

King of Buses

Quote from: Toyota Camry on July 05, 2019, 09:00:23 PMThere is a significant gap in the network that no bus services operate using the Majura Parkway, which could provide express travel between Gungahlin and destinations including Campbell Park, Russell, Majura Park, Canberra Airport, Brindabella Park, Fairbarn Park, Canberra Airport, Fyshwick and Woden. Over the weekend, I will be designing concepts for new bus services to operate using this road between Gungahlin Place and major destinations; suggestions and feedback are welcome.

One peak service that uses the Majura Parkway would be likely be useful and likely appreciated, if it went somewhere useful (such as Russell and Barton, maybe). Two is overkill.

Additional Fyshwick peak routes have been tried before and then cut, presumably due to low patronage and unnecessary duplication of services (see Network '98 route 81 & 82 plus Network '09(?) route 780). A greater priority would be reinstating a Woden to Fyshwick link IMO (New Woden - COC - Fyshwick - Airport route with the 56 revised to terminate at either Narrabundah Terminus (full time) or even the Railway Station, perhaps?).

Quote from: Toyota Camry on July 06, 2019, 10:19:31 AMI have identified a potential solution to this issue in the combination of routes 28 and 43; passengers for Spence Terminus would need to travel exclusively using rapid R3, route 43 would no longer turn left at Copland Dr, it would continue straight prior to a right turn at Kuringa Dr, continuing as Clarrie Hermes Dr, before a left turn at Kingsland Pde to Casey, route 28 would remain unaltered, however the new service would be renumbered as route 35, this is a 'halfway number' between 35 and 43.

I think I'd prefer the R3 be extended to Gungahlin via Casey (from Spence Shops; Clarey Cres can be serviced by an extension on the 43 to Spence Shops - or even to Fraser and beyond (could be made into a bi directional loop with the 42 or something). 27/28 plus 25/26 could then offer connections to Belconnen at Casey this way. Reworking the 23/24 to service Casey to offer an extra connection point would be useful too.

ajw373

Quote from: triumph on July 05, 2019, 10:37:16 PMAnd another significant gap is the Great Barton Highway Divide, crossed now only by R8. Travelling from the Northern Belconnen region to even the adjoining Gungahlin suburb of Nicholls (and Federation Square) involves travelling to the Belconnen Interchanges, changing to R8 and, once across the Great Divide, changing again to rte 24! Particularly irritating if coming from nearby suburbs such as Evatt and Spence. What is needed is a cross country service along Kuringa Dr and Clarrie Hermes Dr.. But don't hold your breath.

Why is there a need for such a route? It doesn't matter where you go in Canberra there are adjacent suburbs that are not linked to each other. A bigger issue if you will is the fact that Nicholls is not connected to Casey, despite Casey being the group centre for that part of Gungahlin. And that Casey is not connected to the Nicholls schools despite Casey being a feeder suburb, though yes do believe there are school day diversions which BTW are not shown on the full network map.

And really if you wanted to link Nicholls to Belconnen why would you want to run them through the suburbs of Belconnen. It would still be quicker to change for the R8 on Gundaroo Drive. Sure that doesn't help Spence of McKellar get to Gungahlin, but question needs to be asked why do they need a direct bus to Gungahlin.

The reason there is noise about the loss of the 51/52 to Belconnen is the fact that something that was there is no longer there. The few times I caught the 51 from Belconnen to Casey the numbers between Gold Creek and Belconnen were not very high at all.

triumph

Quote from: ajw373 on July 09, 2019, 08:18:42 AMWhy is there a need for such a route? It doesn't matter where you go in Canberra there are adjacent suburbs that are not linked to each other. A bigger issue if you will is the fact that Nicholls is not connected to Casey, despite Casey being the group centre for that part of Gungahlin. And that Casey is not connected to the Nicholls schools despite Casey being a feeder suburb, though yes do believe there are school day diversions which BTW are not shown on the full network map.

And really if you wanted to link Nicholls to Belconnen why would you want to run them through the suburbs of Belconnen. It would still be quicker to change for the R8 on Gundaroo Drive. Sure that doesn't help Spence of McKellar get to Gungahlin, but question needs to be asked why do they need a direct bus to Gungahlin.

The reason there is noise about the loss of the 51/52 to Belconnen is the fact that something that was there is no longer there. The few times I caught the 51 from Belconnen to Casey the numbers between Gold Creek and Belconnen were not very high at all.

In many ways your response can be seen as highlighting the issue. The gap and defect in the mostly hub and spoke system is the lack of circumferential routes joining the spokes together. The idea of a Majura Parkway service can be seen as part of a circumferential service too.

The suburbs having the greatest affinity with each other are those nearby but paradoxically those on different spokes have the worst intersuburb services. For example Spence, Evatt or Fraser are just a few minutes to Federation Square, but by bus involves 2 changes with the former network and now 3 changes with reference to 2 bus books (if using them), and takes (and took) too long via Belconnen. It is no wonder patronage on the former rte 51 and 52 was poor.

It is not possible when services are so slow and convoluted to gauge demand from existing patronage.

Actually, I did not promote any particular new route in my first post on this, just drew attention to the what I call the Great Barton Highway Divide.

Example of after lunch journeys to Federation Square by bus from Evatt or Spence shops:
Dept Spence Shops R3 1.21pm     Dept Evatt Shops 43 12.59pm
Arr Westfield Belconnen 1.41pm  Arr Westfield Belconnen 1.21pm
Change
Dept Westfield Belconnen R8 1.50pm
Arr connection to 24 2.07pm
Change
Dept connection 24 2.20pm
Arr Federation Square 2.28pm.
Later buses have connection for change fails by as little as 1 to 2 min.
Journey time from Spence Shops 1hr 7min (walkable if a path existed in much less time); and from Evatt Shops 1hr 29min.

Only the desparate, masochists, or enthusiasts would contemplate doing this. Of course current (and former) patronage is low.

ajw373

Quote from: triumph on July 09, 2019, 10:00:03 PMIn many ways your response can be seen as highlighting the issue. The gap and defect in the mostly hub and spoke system is the lack of circumferential routes joining the spokes together. The idea of a Majura Parkway service can be seen as part of a circumferential service too.

The suburbs having the greatest affinity with each other are those nearby but paradoxically those on different spokes have the worst intersuburb services. For example Spence, Evatt or Fraser are just a few minutes to Federation Square, but by bus involves 2 changes with the former network and now 3 changes with reference to 2 bus books (if using them), and takes (and took) too long via Belconnen. It is no wonder patronage on the former rte 51 and 52 was poor.

It is not possible when services are so slow and convoluted to gauge demand from existing patronage.

Actually, I did not promote any particular new route in my first post on this, just drew attention to the what I call the Great Barton Highway Divide.

Example of after lunch journeys to Federation Square by bus from Evatt or Spence shops:
Dept Spence Shops R3 1.21pm     Dept Evatt Shops 43 12.59pm
Arr Westfield Belconnen 1.41pm  Arr Westfield Belconnen 1.21pm
Change
Dept Westfield Belconnen R8 1.50pm
Arr connection to 24 2.07pm
Change
Dept connection 24 2.20pm
Arr Federation Square 2.28pm.
Later buses have connection for change fails by as little as 1 to 2 min.
Journey time from Spence Shops 1hr 7min (walkable if a path existed in much less time); and from Evatt Shops 1hr 29min.

Only the desparate, masochists, or enthusiasts would contemplate doing this. Of course current (and former) patronage is low.


I strongly disagree. Except to connect schools and shops the amount of cross suburb travel is low, and not because the services don't exist but because the actual demand simply doesn't exist. And even if it did it would be so small that it would be a waste of finite resources attempting to link suburbs like Spence and Nicholls.

As for a circular route, problem with Canberra is the outer suburbs, like where I live in Casey are very low density, circular routes like that in Perth and indeed the radial Metrobus routes in Sydney work because they travel through areas with far greater density. And a good exmaple not sure if in this thread or another where it talks about how low the demand has been for the R9, which serves as the kind of route you are talking about.

Northside

It's not more circular routes that are needed but more rapid, cross-hub routes. Ie, Woden to Belconnen needs to come back. Potentially via Weston/Molonglo hubs.

I agree, there are a number of 'rapid' routes that really don't function as rapids and could be done away with. For example, the R6 is not a rapid connection between Woden and the city, but now provides a number of local  rapid connections. What would be greater would be to have a proper East-west rapid route from Molonglo-Cooleman-Woden-TCH-Red Hill Terminus-Fyshwick. This will then properly provide links between the R10, R7, R4, R5 and R2, plus the existing R6 and 56 routes.


ajw373

Quote from: Northside on July 10, 2019, 01:32:07 PMI agree, there are a number of 'rapid' routes that really don't function as rapids and could be done away with. For example, the R6 is not a rapid connection between Woden and the city, but now provides a number of local  rapid connections.

^^^ This... ^^^

One of the things that I don't think that has been sold to the general public is for the rapids to work you need to think about changing from a local to a rapid at non traditional interchange points and in some case this may involve travelling away from the direction you want to go.

That said I can see why some people are reluctant to do so in suburbia.

triumph

Quote from: ajw373 on July 10, 2019, 04:35:17 PM^^^ This... ^^^

One of the things that I don't think that has been sold to the general public is for the rapids to work you need to think about changing from a local to a rapid at non traditional interchange points and in some case this may involve travelling away from the direction you want to go.

That said I can see why some people are reluctant to do so in suburbia.


Good point, BUT Transport Canberra fails to follow through with the obvious aspect that connections,particularly from an R service to a less frequent local service, need to be nominated as connecting and, within reason, guaranteed.

For example, R8 from Belconnen to rte 24 in Gundaroo Dr where the rte 24 has been carefully arranged to double along Gundaroo Dr to connection stop(s) serviced by R8, need properly co-ordinated timetabling. It is absurd, as in the previously detailed example, that an R8 should be timetabled to turn up a mere 2min after the connecting local rte 24 service is time tabled to leave.

Well, at least some interesting discussion is occurring on this general topic.

Barry Drive

Agreed. And it's not just "suburban" rapid connections, at major "interchanges" they are also mostly non existent.

It's all very well to point to lines on a map, but when each transfer can delay your travel by 10-15 minutes (or longer on weekends), the claim of being "better connected" is not credible.

Back to the original post though, yes peak services bypassing interchanges can be useful, but only where there is sufficient demand to justify a service. And considering some well patronised Xpressos (such as 743) were axed, the bar may be very high indeed.

Northside

Totally. When will TC learn that 15 mins is not turn up and go. Adding 14 mins to a journey after watching your 'rapid' connection leave right before your suburban bus arrives is the type of experience that sends passengers back to their cars. Worse still if it's the other way around and the wait is 30 mins or more. With all the modern tech, each bus is GPS traced, it's not hard to time the connections and have them wait at most a couple of minutes for the connection.

One thing I never really understood about Canberra express buses is why they bypass interchanges. Nowhere else in the world does this happen. Expressos like the 180 and 181 should still stop at Tuggers before running express to the city. This provides express services to the interchange and negates the need for the 80 and 81 to run in parallel. The trips saved can go to more frequent expressos and will also reduce the crush on the R4s.

But yeah, on the Majura expressos. I think it's doubtful one would be introduced any time soon. But if it did, there would only be one route that would need to connect with the R2, R3, 54 and 56 to get passengers the rest of the way. Unfortunately few of these connections exist. Although a stop on the corner of Piallago and Fairbairn Avenues would finally give public transport access to Pialligo and facilitate a transfer point.

ajw373

Quote from: Northside on July 12, 2019, 10:52:16 PMOne thing I never really understood about Canberra express buses is why they bypass interchanges. Nowhere else in the world does this happen. Expressos like the 180 and 181 should still stop at Tuggers before running express to the city. This provides express services to the interchange and negates the need for the 80 and 81 to run in parallel. The trips saved can go to more frequent expressos and will also reduce the crush on the R4s.

If you are going to run an express via the local interchange then what is the point? In the old days of the 333 there were 333's every 5 mins in peak, so connections were good. But the Expresso's (and I cannot recall the first iteration in late 80's early 90's IIRC, which had a different name, Beeline rings a bell), bypassed the local interchange which is what made them faster by a good 10-15 minutes. Talking Belco routes as they are what I am more familiar with.

Northside

The point is to run express between the interchanges, not from an interchange to some random suburban run. Ie Tuggeranong Expressos should run express from civic to Tuggers, then the local route. Belconnen expressos should run express from civic to Kippax, then the local route. This is far more effective than having to run expressos and local services side by side. All routes run express during peak, if you want an interim stop, you simply alight at the last interchange before the express run and transfer to a rapid service.

ajw373

Quote from: Northside on July 14, 2019, 02:05:20 PMThe point is to run express between the interchanges, not from an interchange to some random suburban run. Ie Tuggeranong Expressos should run express from civic to Tuggers, then the local route. Belconnen expressos should run express from civic to Kippax, then the local route. This is far more effective than having to run expressos and local services side by side. All routes run express during peak, if you want an interim stop, you simply alight at the last interchange before the express run and transfer to a rapid service.

Sorry disagree fully. Peak hour expresses should run the standard suburban route to a given point, then run from there direct to the Parl Triangle/City. No point having them if you run to an interchange.

And a good example on the old timetable the 251 and 252, would have been better to provide a shorter trip for residents along the route to the City if in the AM peak they started at Gungahlin, ran towards Belconnen, but when they got to the Barton Highway headed straight down the Barton Highway to Federal Highway/Northborne Ave. And in the afternoon vice versa. The way they ran via Gungahlin, which is how I read you are saying expresses should run added at least 25 minutes to a trip time from Casey compared to if they had of done what I suggested. Once reason I never got the bus, and even now with new timetable and light rail I still don't get the bus. (I do drive to Southwell Park and park there and get tram though).


All moot anyway as there

Northside

I don't think we do disagree. It's not a one size fits all solution. Gungahlin interchange is virtually back tracking from Casey when compared to the quickest route. The old 252 and 251 could have met at Gold Creek to interchange. With expressos continuing to civic and the local bus to belconnen. Then there is no need for duplication of routes, they running alternate.

I'm saying the current setup of 180/80 and 181/81 is simply wasteful when Tuggeranong interchange is just a short detour.

Bus 400

I'm actually wondering if the Horse Park Drive duplication is completed at the Majura Parkway end? If so hows the traffic flow?

If not, there's no chance of a public bus service. Even last year, if you didn't the Airport before 4pm, you'd be stuck on the Majura Parkway for 20-30 minutes. In the past I've been stuck from the Federal Highway to Well Station Drive for 20 odd minutes. If the traffic was worse then that, reports would hit Canberra radio.

So unless you could guarantee this run would be a drivers last & had driving hours up their sleeve, you'd be guranteed the next run would run late. Or on a good day, you're paying someone to do nothing. Same could be said for the other direction & morning peak.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk


Northside

The duplication has been open for at least a month now and back to 80km/hr for a couple of weeks. Traffic still builds up at the evening peak at the traffic lights. This causes bumper to bumper traffic from Majura Winery to the lights but the traffic still flows. Horse park dr flows well now both ways.