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What's the longest acceptable time that LR should take City to Woden

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Author Topic: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route  (Read 664 times)

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Offline Buzz Killington

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Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« on: October 29, 2016, 03:04:48 PM »
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An interesting article in the CT today proposing an alternative to the presumed Adelaide Ave / Yarra Glen route for stage two: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/light-rail-to-woden-which-way-should-it-run-20161028-gscu33.html

Some interesting ideas but I suspect some parts of it would be far too difficult (Macgregor and Kent Sts).

Thoughts?

Offline King of Buses

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Re: Stage 2 Route
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2016, 03:20:08 PM »
I can see why they'd want to send it through Deakin in order to (potentially) attract more patronage. Though, it does sacrifice the 'direct' part of the service. That'd probably mean the existing Blue Rapid corridor as run by buses between the City and Woden would need to remain for direct travel. Though, sending LR stage 2 via Wisdom/Kent St *could* work as a direct service provided it didn't do much (or anything) else.

Offline Bus 503

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Re: Stage 2 Route
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2016, 09:18:50 PM »
I think the Woden stage two route needs to be direct and faster than buses. The corridor is right there and is designed specifically for light rail to go through it so it seems a bit weird to go and detour around that.
I would have thought City to the Airport would make a good stage two, or City to Belconnen because there needs to be a solution (especially during peak hours) to the constant overcrowding on the Blue Rapids - there is constant demand for buses throughout the day to get to the City from Belconnen or Belconnen to the City, so I would've thought that or the Airport would be a sensible stage two.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Stage 2 Route
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2016, 08:20:39 AM »
I would also think that sticking to the main route, perhaps with a set of lights for pedestrians and a stop installed around the deakin shops area, would be best.

However, I am also not in favour of Woden-City as stage 2, especially if they are thinking to replace rapids through that area. That is perhaps the smoothest, fastest, and most efficiently operated rapid stretch there is at the moment, and I think buses are running it fine. It also saves people either losing frequency or changing modes up to twice (to get from Tuggers-Woden, Tuggers-city, tuggers to belco (perhaps a supplement all day parkway route), Woden to belco) unless they keep running the 300s at the same frequency as current which would almost defeat the purpose of the tram.
 
Why they have to take out a middle chunk of the 300s, let alone do an incomplete job on each of the rapid routes without finishing any properly I don't understand. Even though I live on the southside, I would rather they did stage 2 to fyshwick to complete the 200 series before touching on the others- otherwise, again, people who currently get 1 bus would be changing at gungahlin and at civic and there are enough people on the 200s at the moment. This would get the trams across to the south as well over the kings ave bridge.

Offline ajw373

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Re: Stage 2 Route
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2016, 08:01:24 PM »
I think the Woden stage two route needs to be direct and faster than buses. The corridor is right there and is designed specifically for light rail to go through it so it seems a bit weird to go and detour around that.
I would have thought City to the Airport would make a good stage two, or City to Belconnen because there needs to be a solution (especially during peak hours) to the constant overcrowding on the Blue Rapids - there is constant demand for buses throughout the day to get to the City from Belconnen or Belconnen to the City, so I would've thought that or the Airport would be a sensible stage two.

Wouldn't have worked politically being another northside route, and likewise a route to Kingston, which would be more sensible than the airport would have only went through the inner city electorate, which is also leans more left than right. Though tend to agree from providing a solution to a problem Belconnen would have made more sense with more enroute places to serve, which is where lightrail (the European version rather than US) excels.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 05:58:45 PM »
2 recent articles in the Canberra Times
Quote
ACT government signs suite of light rail stage 2 contracts
Kirsten Lawson


The ACT government has signed a series of contracts with consultants to design its second stage of light rail from the city to Woden, using many of the consultants it used on the first leg.


Ernst and Young has been appointed commercial adviser, including preparing the business case and economic analysis, market soundings, and advising on how to structure the contracts to deliver stage 2. The company also worked on the stage 1 business case, and was contracted for $2.3 million of work on stage 1 in the three years to June 2016.


Arup has been appointed technical adviser for stage 2, and its tasks include engineering design, traffic and access design, underground investigations, urban design, safety planning and planning approvals.


Arup, also technical adviser for stage 1, is one of the most highly paid light rail consultants date, winning contracts worth $7.6 million over the three years to June 2016.


Transport Minister Meegan Fitzharris was unable to provide the final costs of the latest tranche of contracts this week, with details still being signed off, but in November 2016 she said the contracts were together worth about $7 million, of a total $25 million to prepare for stage 2.


The route is expected to be finalised this year, with contracts signed before the 2020 election.


Turner and Townsend has been appointed to estimate costs for the 10km route to Woden, which is more complicated than the line from Gungahlin. It must cross  Commonwealth Avenue bridge, and is to be wire-free over the bridge and through the parliamentary triangle.


Turner and Townsend, which also costed the Parramatta light rail line for the NSW government, appears to have been paid nearly $2 million to date for cost estimation work, as "constructability advisor", and assessing the tenders for stage 1.


An audit report last year detailed some of the negotiations between cost-estimator Turner and Townsend and the ACT government when Turner and Townsend initially the capital cost of stage 1 at $1.01 billion in 2014. The figure prompted a "value-engineering workshop" "to allow Turner and Townsend an opportunity to clarify elements of the design for their costing assumptions" and to refine the design to reduce costs, the auditor reported. Soon after, Turner and Townsend revised down the cost to $610 million, including scrapping $100 million of "owners' costs" and a $227 million contingency. Eventually, the construction contract was signed for $710 million.


Elton Consulting has been appointed as communications and engagement advisor. Elton, also involved in Sydney light rail, was contracted to do Canberra planning work in 2015-16, worth $220,000, according to annual reports. In 2015, Elton employed former deputy head of the ACT Land Development Agency Dan Stewart and its website boasts Mr Stewart's experience in light rail.


Sydney rail engineering consultancy SNC Lavalin Rail and Transit has been appointed as operations advisor, including deciding on the light rail vehicles. SNC Lavalin Rail was also operations consultant on stage 1, with contracts worth $2.2 million.


Veitch Lister Consulting will do transport modelling for the second stage, including calculating expected patronage. Veitch Lister worked on demand forecasting for stage 1 and has been contracted for about $400,000 of work to date.


Clayton Utz has been appointed as legal advisors and Sparke Helmore as probity advisor. Hudson Global, in charge of recruitment for stage 1, has also been given the recruitment task for stage 2.


Most of the contracts were tightly contested in the tender round, with the ACT government website listing nine separate bids for the cost-estimation contract won by Turner and Townsend. Four companies bid for the transport modelling contract, and four to be commercial advisor.


Six companies bid for the communications contract. Two companies bid be to technical advisor, but it appears SNC Lavalin Rail and Transit was the only formal bid for the operations management contract. Ten companies bid for the recruitment contract.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-government-signs-suite-of-light-rail-stage-2-contracts-20170426-gvswkz.html


Quote
Names of Canberra's first 13 light rail stops revealed, next the design
Katie Burgess


They've been immortalised in ink, in coffee cups and in cake but transport minister Meegan Fitzharris says Canberra's new light rail stops could be as iconic as the city's famous bus shelters.


The minister unveiled the latest "little milestone" in stage one of the city's light rail project - the names of the 13 light rail stops stretching from Gungahlin Place to Alinga Street in Civic.


The new light rail stops will be: Gungahlin Place, Manning Clark North, Mapleton Avenue, Nullarbor Avenue, Well Station Drive, EPIC and Racecourse, Phillip Avenue, Swinden Street, Dickson Interchange, Macarthur Avenue, Ipima Street, Eloura Street and Alinga Street.


And the next milestone in the project will be the design of the stops, which the minister hopes will be as distinctive as the 'bunker' bus shelters.


"[The design] will come out in the next couple of months so we'll have some designs for people to look at," Ms Fitzharris said.


"Obviously we've been working with Canberra Metro on those designs as well as NCA because the design of the stops, particularly on the spots they're responsible for, are very important to them as well so we'll have the final designs out for people to look at over the next couple of months as well."


Ms Fitzharris said the design will be "broadly similar" to the ones in the original artist's impressions but will be "much more developed".


"They've had a lot of input from local designers as well so they represent parts of the city people will be familiar with so they'll be pretty exciting for people to have a look at," Ms Fitzharris said.


Ms Fitzharris said stage one of light rail is on schedule, with work underway at every point along the rout.


The first piece of track to be laid in May or June and the first vehicle shells have gone into production in Spain.


Work is also underway to integrate stage one and two of the project "seamlessly".


At the Alinga Street stop will be a recharging facility for the trams, as stage two of the light rail has to be wire-free, Ms Fitzharris confirmed.


"Because we'd always planned for this to be a city-wide project we knew that anything beyond Alinga Street would require us to be wire free and that includes a Russell extension or across the lake so the capacity is within each of the vehicles to be wire free anyway and within the tracks itself," she said.


"My understanding [of the charging station] that it'd be no extra time, it sort of recharges as it goes, as in no extra time from the time it takes to stop and unload and load on passengers anyway so there's no additional time."


Work is also continuing on updating the bus network to make way for light rail.


Ms Fitzharris said there would be two bus network refreshes between now and this time next year.


"We don't want to be at the point where we are refreshing the whole network at the same time as we're starting up light rail so there'll probably be two points of network updates between now and the start of light rail so one this year with the introduction of new rapid services and one in the first quarter of 2018, although that date may be subject to change," Ms Fitzharris said.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/names-of-canberras-first-13-light-rail-stops-revealed-next-the-design-20170426-gvsk56.html


Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2017, 11:43:37 AM »
In case you missed it, consultation for the route of Stage 2 has commenced.

You can get the full story, and provide feedback through https://www.yoursay.act.gov.au/LRS2



Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2017, 04:32:02 PM »
Now with added poll.

Offline ajw373

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2017, 05:05:15 PM »
The real question for the poll is not what is the maximum time Woden to City, but what is the role of light rail.

To me, it is not about linking Woden to Civic, it is about linking the areas in between to each other, in which case time becomes less of an issue. Much like Gungahlin to City. The trunk express route should remain as an express bus service, linking Tuggernong to Belconnen via Woden and the City. Until such time as you can run light rail over that whole route. But honestly don't think that is viable. I've been on public record as saying only place I think light rail is viable in Canberra is Gungahlin to City and onto the railway station via the Parl triangle and Kingston. Unless we line Belconnen Way, Adelaide Ave and Athlon Drive with Flemmington Road style apartment buildings.

Offline Bus 400

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2017, 08:38:04 PM »
A bit like how Castle Hill in Sydney is changing from a 1/4 acre house & land to a sea of apartments & townhouses, with the new train line.

What would be stopping areas surrounding Deakin Shops, Curtin Shops, Cotter Road from becoming areas of apartments & townhouses? South Canberra can't be stuck in the 1920's in the 2020's. With the added bonus of bus routes 1& 2 (don't get me started on the whole "why aren't the bus routes planned for the light rail) where they criss cross most propsed light rail stops. Canberra will just have to get use to changing mose of transport mid route.

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Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2017, 07:05:40 PM »
The much awaited report detailing (not) the outcomes of the consultation is now available
https://www.yoursay.act.gov.au/LRS2
https://yoursay.act.gov.au/application/files/3615/0329/0787/Light_Rail_UpdateAugust_2017_Summary.pdf


And a Canberra times article to go with it
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/light-rail-stage-two-unlikely-to-go-to-canberra-hospital-due-to-technical-constraints-20170821-gy0rl2.html


Barton route is preferred, unlikely to extend to hospital, but doesn't say much more than that. It does not answer the fundamental question of whether it is intended to replace that portion of the blue rapid completely, though I now think that is unlikely

Offline King of Buses

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2017, 09:31:08 PM »
It does not answer the fundamental question of whether it is intended to replace that portion of the blue rapid completely, though I now think that is unlikely

Don't go there. From what I can gather* it likely will - even if it runs through Barton.

* The source for this is, I will admit, is slightly biased towards the Barton diversion to the point that they seem completely oblivious to the fact that it will be around 5 minutes slower than the existing bus service. They also seem to think that running through Barton will increase patronage all day every day, rather than the more likely scenario of running through Barton in the middle of the day/on weekends with a handful of City - Woden pax. who haven't reverted to using cars owing to said diversion adding too much time.

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2017, 11:07:08 PM »
Don't go there. From what I can gather* it likely will - even if it runs through Barton


Oh dear. Let's hope you're wrong. Because for the people traveling further who have to add the time of 2 transfers on top of the 5+min slower journey...
At least it might ease the congestion in peak  :-\

Offline Barry Drive

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 10:48:39 AM »
Don't get me started. No, too late.

1. All that has been reported is the summary of the consultation. No decision on route alignment has been announced. The consultation itself was so flawed its outcome shouldn't be used for any decision making.

2.

The source for this is ... slightly biased towards the Barton diversion to the point that they seem completely oblivious to the fact that it will be around 5 minutes slower than the existing bus service.

If it were only 5 minutes slower than the existing bus service then this wouldn't be an issue. BUT IT WON'T BE.

What has been said is that it might be 5-7 minutes slower than the direct light rail route. Even though I doubt it and would estimate it as 10 minutes slower. But on top of that, despite the advantages of traffic priority, even the quickest light rail route would add maybe 3 - 5 minutes on top of the bus due to additional stops along the route and a top speed of 70km/h.

So from an existing 15 minutes (apx) bus run you'd have to add 5 + 10 minutes, making the journey time 30 minutes. And that's only to Woden.

(Poll has been re-opened. See top of thread.)

Offline Busfanatic101

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Re: Stage 2 (City to Woden) Route
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 08:27:53 PM »
A slightly more detailed consultation report has been released. Slightly.
https://www.transport.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/1096090/Light-Rail-UpdateAugust-2017-Report.pdf